Skinny legs vs Large legs (MUSCLE) - Page 2

No argument with the weight part, just the percentage body fat part. It's simply not possible to drop 4, 5 or 6 pounds of actual fat that rapidly, you've got to burn 3500 Calories to actually burn off a pound of fat, even one pound is a big workout.

Your tape might even show a small reduction depending on where you carry your excess water, do a multi point skin caliper test for the most reliable body fat in this case (checking real fat losses vs. hydration changes). If you always track body fat while in similar hydration states and you've practiced the technique then I prefer underwater weighing but like I said above it's heavily influenced by hydration state. I've never had much luck with electrical impedance based methods, even when both underwater weighing and multipoint caliper measurements had me below 10% body fat the electrical methods (handheld, integrated into bathroom scale and multicontact lab units) had me at 18-20%.

No, I don't actually obsess about body fat as much as this post would make it look. I got roped into a few studies over the years, they like probing and prodding cyclists and I got some free VO2 Max tests out of the deal

-Dave

OK based upon what I remember and heard lately:

1. DEXA - The Gold Standard past 5yrs
2. Bod pod - Accurate, doesn't compartmentalize like the DEXA
3. BIA - Only if you are hydrated
4. Underwater weighing - Remaining air in the lungs becomes too much of a variable
5. Skin Fold - Dependant on the experience of the user

I do agree the electrical method can be quite variable but it will give you a general idea of where you are heading...ok Dave now I am getting nutty about it and will check where I can get a DEXA test...

I know we talk about this off forum so for a cyclist what do you believe is a good overall bodyfat % for most races and except in extreme cases I can not see why someone would want to loose muscle.

-js

Back in the day I had body fat percentage targets and they were under 10%. I know you get a lot of posts by folks talking about sub 5% BF numbers but I've never wanted to push the envelope that far.

These days I think of it more in terms of maximizing watts/kg which speaks to your statement. Pure weight or percentage body fat can be counterproductive if you end up sacrificing too much power. Especially for an all around racer that wants to do reasonably well on big climbs, fast crits and time trials. That's part of the reason that I haven't done a percentage body fat measurement in a very long time. I no longer see it as the ultimate goal. I do track scale weight and sustainable power.

Last season I raced at ~70 kg and continued to build power throughout the season. This year I'm a bit leaner and targeting ~68 kg for the big climbing races. But I'm also keeping a close eye on my power for long training intervals. If that starts to fall or I have trouble with recovery I'll stop dropping weight.

Anyway, I don't have any preset body fat targets but do have an idea of what I'd like to hit in terms of watts/kg for the big climbs. I also have an idea of what I'd like to hit in terms of pure watts for long time trials. Between the two I've got an idea of where I'd like my total weight to be but exactly how much is fat? I can't say but it's not a lot.

I've also got my RD wife to sanity check my obsessive tendencies. She's done a lot of work with eating disorders both in the typical adolescent population and with athletes who've taken things a bit too far. She keeps me honest when it comes to healthy weight goals.

-Dave

Back in my days competing in bodybuilding where BF % means a lot I was really excited about my condition 6 weeks out from one particular competition so I set an appointment to get hydrostatic testing at Georgia State University. With calipers I was below 5%, but after the hydrostic test what a disappointment because I was more like 10%. For the next several weeks I restricted calories and did extra cardio work and yet my skin looked like it was painted on already. The only thing I accomplished other than killing myself for no reason was getting 3rd place (my lowest placing in my career).

The following year I stopped using calipers, didn't bother with the hydrostatic test and just used my fingers to pinch skinfold so that I would not know the data, but could sense that my skin was getting thinner.

Now days my estimate is based on seeing an Abdominal (1) or seeing Abdominals (6). At the moment I am at 4

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If it is not clear my point in the previous post is that bodyfat percentages are not typically as low as we think they are. Too low and the body will not function quite properly. It was always interesting to me while training female bodybuilders because many of them would not have their monthly cycle for years because their bodyfat levels were low. In general strength levels were usually pretty low during the last few weeks prior to competition because of bodyfat levels and a common observation that joints typically hurt quite a bit. Genetics often plays a huge role in bodyfat setpoint. Unfortunately for me I have that thick skin that was meant for artic temps and doesn't tan well either.

For cycling my goal is to get to that point of loosing as much excess bagage without hindering performance. I haven't found that point yet.

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4 is not bad my friend...trust me once you get past 40 any is damn good. Depending on the day I have 4 also...always had trouble with the lower half...

After 40 it seems your body really wants to hold on to that body fat...I had a friend who just after so long gave up and went the cheater method...Plastic surgeon and they sucked out just enough so you could see them all...

Ofcourse they all went away six months later...lol.... But he said it was worth it and would do it again.

-js

This does seem to be the case. I also remember at 38 people would tell me that I would start feeling the aches and pains at 40 and that came true as well, but I cycle pretty good after a 2 hour warm up.

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I'm 47 and still not feeling those aches and pains. Knock on wood....

You should definitely knock on wood but since I know a little about Felt, I can tell you if you took the same journey he has taken you would probably not be as lucky. Trust me, he is not ready to hang it up either....

I'm starting to find it hard to maintain a loss of 1 to 1.5 lbs per week. Sometimes I wonder if I need to sell my soul to the Devil in order to get rid of the last 20 or so pounds. Back when I was 220lbs - 2lbs a week for the first 10 weeks was pretty easy.....

I can tell you what I have been told and what I believe...

First the old calories in and calories out is straight foward enough and you have noted the amount of riding you are doing but I wonder if you have stopped the calories in as much...

But besides the science, I was told by several guys I worked out with how after 40 you body wants to maintain a certain amount of fat. They explained to me that this is due to natural selection and goes back to the cave man. When man had to hunt for food and food was scarce the person who was able to keep more body fat survived longer in harsh conditions hence the body learned to keep body fat longer and these people survived longer to have off spring. The gene was passed on. In the end your body simply want to survive and do it using the least amount of energy.

Your body does not know the difference between a 200lb barbell or huge boulder about to fall on you, it just knows I need to protect myself and I will use all my muscles and energy systems in a way that maximizes my chances for survival. In essence your body really wants to do the least amount of work to get the task done. Once it does it enough time it will adapt given a reasonable task for it.

So your body has adapted to your routine and no longer needs to use the same amount of resources to accomplish the same goals. This is why the hardcore guys told me to always mix it up...once your body adapts you are done. Your body will not change...you need to keep mixing up your routine.

I would like to see if you changed up to some of those 20 minute intervals and held off on the endurance rides, how your body would respond? You may be surprised.

I did not believe what they said at first but when I broke my ankle during the recovery and still today I see what they mean. My body does not care that I am cycling and the watts I am doing, it just knows for some reason I need to perform this task. It is smarter than me and knows my left ankle is not normal so in turn will automatically favor my right ankle or compensate in some other manner. It will protect itself. Even when I try to force my body to use more of my left ankle as soon as I stop making the effort it will go back to they way it feels is best...not me.

The human body is an amazing machine....

-js

When you have been grossly over consuming, a change to "calories in - calories out" towards the negative probably causes you to lose weight fast. Eventually after the change your metabolism adapts to the new "regime" and I think it becomes harder. You may need to take "vacations" from the calorie deficit to keep your body from getting used to it for too long.

I also think as we get older and go farther along in a weight loss regime, we become less interested in making the sacrifices necessary to cut that kind of weight.

The diet is the same - the training is pretty much the same too, although on second thoughts I have been gaining a little muscle of late which kinda answers my own comment...

I honestly still have my doubts about people claiming they are gaining muscle through cardio...all my experience and articles I have read say it should not be. I can understand that you may look like you gained more muscle because your muscles seem to pop more now you can see all those muscles that were once hiding but gained muscle...I doubt it.

I still say change up your diet or your training and see how your body responds.

I was in cab a few minutes ago and they were talking about Mark Lepster (sp??) who is swimming for USA in the olympics and how his coaches tell him to take in 10,000 calories a day and he is eating all the time...they were saying 5 times the normal amount for average people...I wonder how much training this guy does?

-js

Swimming will use more muscles than cycling (though possibly at a lower resistance?) and hence, caloric burn rates could be higher. But 8000 cal (10k - 2k for body functions) sounds like a lot of swimming.