Once more: gyming to improve power - Page 2

Yes, those are an excellent move without a doubt. I just managed to kill my knees (and Iliotibial tract at the process) a few years ago doing excessive amount of stair climbing and (non-weighted) bench step ups combined with 3 times a week squatting (yes, clever I know ) as a winter training so that is kind of a sore spot for me. It could be (edit: it definately was) that it was the huge volume that caused the problems and doing low volumes with concervative weights does not do that harm.

So it would lunges, one legged press and possibly bench step ups that would be one variant. Deadlift and power clean would be another one. Squat, maybe I just keep in one variant for now because I am really bad squatter, try to concentrate on improving the form there without adding too much complications. Then some abs and maybe just a bit of bench, not because I'd need but it is so nice, unstressful move, just have to be careful because otherwise the shoulders will puff up which isn't very good for aerodynamics.

Generally keep the volume very low (especially now that I am just starting after three years of break). Three basic moves eg. 5x5 or 3x8 + abs. That way I think I could get the best of the both worlds. Some added strength without compromising the quality of FTP-work too much.

__________________
"It takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place."

It seems like you are on the right track and do not need any advice or guidance. That is why I was just making suggestions of options in case. High bench step ups are not what I personally do, but then again I am a lifting purist and my goals are different than yours. I get plenty of leg strength training through just plain old squats and leg press. Keeping it simple as you say is the best course. Low volume is actually the path to greater strength if you can get warmed up quickly enough. Unfortunately for me I require a lot of warm up sets.


My leg workout yesterday was this: I have a lot of warm up sets before getting to my working sets. Everything I do is full range of motion.

Leg extensions 5 sets (warm up)
Seated leg curls 5 sets (warm up)
One legged leg press 1 set (warm up)
Leg press (4 plates - warm up)
Leg press (6 plates - warm up)
Leg press (8 plates - warm up)
Leg press (10 plates - working set, 6 reps)
Leg press (12 plates or 540 lbs - working set, 6 reps) (fairly easy and felt like 60% of max)

Squats (135 lbs x 10)
Squats (185 lbs x 6)
Squats (225 lbs x 6)
Squats (225 lbs x 6)
Squats (135 lbs x 10)

The squats are something I have to work back into because of back issues, but between now and December I will be ramping up if my body holds up (back, knees and no muscle strains).

Keep us posted as you progress. I will be interested to see how it works out for you.

__________________
My Blog

Yes, thanks, I am very greatful for that! Also I think I got some "validation" by posting the plan and hearing opinions.

Actually if you discount the warmups (maybe a bit more and progressing slower than mine) I don't think your volume is excessive. When I say 5x5 or 3x8 it means business. That might precede 2-5 warmup sets depending on movement and weights used (I started the jumping squats with 35kg so there really wasn't need for a long warmup ).

PS, when in earth do you wake up ?

__________________
"It takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place."

I was up early (4 am) and off to the gym to do a spin class and work out some of the soreness in my legs and then train chest afterwards. I would normally train again on Tuesday evenings on the trainer & power tap, but this evening I will try to go help some folk after work with some flood damage that occurred last week.

I hope that over the next months I can add some leg strength back. I always train with weights, but there is a difference between training with weights and going into a periodization of strength training and now it is my time to once again go into that mode. Hopefully we both will enter and endure without injury.

__________________
My Blog

Frost,

PM coming soon...

-Meek

__________________
-Meek
"Some people train to look pretty. I just train so I can be the strongest man there is. And then again, I'm already pretty." -Magnus Samuelsson

Felt, if you aren't already doing this, I'd suggest a 1-legged leg press. You get a much greater ROM and it is much more cycling specific.

__________________
-Meek
"Some people train to look pretty. I just train so I can be the strongest man there is. And then again, I'm already pretty." -Magnus Samuelsson

Obviusly you haven't fortotten me picking on your over weight problem recently .

No seriously, I have 20 years history of gym training which is of course good but on the other hand there is a big risk here that whatever I use to do at gym that at least wasn't acutely hurting me and my body had got used to, could now suddenly after a three years break turn out to be something that breaks my unprepared muscles and ligaments. So I try to keep that warning actively on my mind.

__________________
"It takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place."

This guy thinks so too. It's the Australian national sprint team's "bread and butter". There are some other good insights in there too.

Attached Files

Oz_Track_Training_by_Paul_Rodgers.pdf (21.0 KB, 67 views)

Good link Steve! Thanks!

Go to the gym if you want to but don't expect it to help your cycling.

You're absolutely right Mitosis, going to the gym won't do anything for my cycling. Now, if I move some weights or ride a stationary bike while I'm there, that might help me reach my goals, but certainly just showing up does nothing, excluding the 3 miles I ride to get there, which probably don't do much of anything for my physical fitness.
Now, in case you didn't read that pdf, I'd like you take take a look at the following snippets and tell me what you think is wrong with them. All emphasis is mine.

"Weight training for enduros - the same strategies apply but maximal strength and power are less critical. All endurance riding, even the bunch sprint at the end, is really submaximal.A little bit of gym regularly helps to maintain the structural integrity of the body, prevent imbalances and prepare you for crashes, but the real gains come on the road. Racing is the best training."
"For strength endurance on the bike, ride up hills in the saddle on bigger gears. That was the only strength work out team pursuit did for the last three years and they won everything there was to win with a bucket load of world records to boot. Incidentally, they are also the fastest starters."

I think you'd certainly approve of all the things I bold-texted.

I'm not a trackie - never have been, probably never will. I rode the Kilo once on an outdoor track. I'd argue that it was the hardest thing I'd ever done in my life. A good part of it has to be mental - it's fecking brutal. If you sucked like I did and do something pedestrian like a 1min 16 - go do an all out effort for 1 minute and plan on finishing at 1 minute. When you finish that one minute get someone to count down that last 16 seconds backwards. I swear stuff happens in slow motion, it'll be the most brutal 16 seconds you've encountered short of riding your bike at speed into the side of someones house - been there, done that, killed the helmet...

... if you chose that as your primary focus - more power too you. I don't 'get it' - you're going around in circles putting yourself through a terrible effort. At least on the hills you see why it's hard. LOL

Here's a little nugget from Chris Hoy... He's 'fairly handy' on a track bike at the shorter distances.


In terms of trying to increase your speed how much of that work is done in the gym?
Gym? It's been a very gradual thing. I haven't improved much, I've kind of plateaued. You always improve a lot at the start. It's like anything, you can have a steep learning curve. But from sort of 1999 onwards it's just been like every year, maybe five kilos, two and a half to five kilos gain in the squat, one rep max. So I think the initial strength you have, if you've never been to the gym before and you have a good six months, or 12 months of quality training with the right technique and the right advice, then you do see a difference. If you like - your bottom end curve. You come out of the start gate and you can really kind of have a press and pedal hard at that speed. Obviously it doesn't always transfer across to your top end speed. You see some guys that are built like stick insects that can pedal like anything and you don't need to have massive big legs to pedal fast at top end, but at the same time it does help with your start, yeah.

Image copyright Rebecca Charlton

In the gym is there a lot of core work and upper body?
We try not to do too much upper body, I used to do upper body when I was younger. You can put muscle mass on quite easily and you don't train to get big because you can get big quite easily so yeah, it's more the frontal area it's just your aerodynamics. If you've got big shoulders and big arms then it's a lot of air compression. You're trying to be as small as you can but at the same time you obviously use your arms doing cleans or even when you are squatting you're holding the bar. For dead lifts as well, and just riding the bike. When you're doing starts you're kind of holding in that strong brace position. It's an isometric move, you're not moving your arms - it's isometric strength so you do use your arms and inevitably you will put that mass on but you try not to do too much.

World Champion Chris Hoy: INTERVIEW - RoadCyclingUK Features

Swampy, so for someone like me, who never did any leg workouts, doing some exercises will definitely help me out. I mean, I did not have any strength in my legs before I started riding, and just from this season alone, my legs gained most of the muscle, strength and endurance. So I plan to do some normal weight and cardio exercises this winter at the gym, not to try to gain muscle but just to get a little stronger and ready for that initial start.

Thank you,
-Greg

I should qualify that - for track work there are some advantages. Posted before I read the whole thread. Too late to edit.

We all know that by now and several thousand threads later that gym work doesn't do anything significant for 99% of cycling. However the 1% it does make a difference in is 'starts', as Hoy alluded to in the post above. Frost, the OP, wants to do a kilo, which begins with a 'start' and therefore gym work is relevant to him. Frost already has a strong FTP and probably decent 30 and 60 sec power (all which help him finish the kilo). Working an aspect of the 'ride' that he doesn't train (starts) and doing a little gym work where he is going to make quick initial gains is smart.
Frost, get close to the strength plateau that comes very quickly (several months), reduce poundage and do very explosive movements in the gym and on the bike and watch your times decrease...
The Aussie thread, while some maintain is dated now, is still good advice. For more information contact a great coach.

FWIW When doing the gym work at max efforts and explosive efforts you will be taxing your CNS(Central Nervous System) very hard, whether you know it or not. Make sure to rest, eat well and sleep well even if you don't feel like it and work your way up the volume ladder and make sure you don't 'fry' yourself.
My 2 cents.

-Meek

__________________
-Meek
"Some people train to look pretty. I just train so I can be the strongest man there is. And then again, I'm already pretty." -Magnus Samuelsson