Once more: gyming to improve power - Page 3

Wow, a lot more interest in this thread, thanks guys!

Yes, that (among others in FGF) is very good read. Obviously for a "bit" more advanced level than I am, a rookie, just playing with idea not even having a track bike. (nice comment about Pilates )

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"It takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place."

weeell, strong in absolute numbers, mediocre if you think my size...

30s is pretty good, haven't tested it lately but I usually do a couple of standing 30s at the end of the sprint workout and those are ~1050w (after 4 flying 5-10s and 4 overgeared 5-10s uphill standing starts) so I think properly rested it could be close to 1100w.
I had a target of hitting 10w/kg for minute at the beginning of the season which was based on my last year best 820w (uphill) but when I started doing flat standing starts I very soon realised how big is the difference between doing it on flat with most of time seated vs. uphill standing. I doubt I can ever hit 10w/kg on flat, but then again, this year to podium in nationals here was ~1:09 and M30 (there wasn't M35) winning time was 1.11,63 so maybe a bit less can get atleast somewhere.

So you're saying first strength then explosion? I was thinking of starting with explosive movements right away but that could make sense, especially could save from injuries, perhaps.

Yes, that's why only once a week (+jump exercise once) and of course I don't want to lose the hard earned ftp .

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"It takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place."

I think Alex said somewhere that you may try to pace and save yourself at the beginning of the Kilo but it doesn't make a difference, you'll die a horrible death at the end of it .
I haven't hit anyones house (how can you do that btw?) but I hit a pothole in a downhill going 60kmh and somersaulted straight to my head. I like wearing a helmet, especially after that. It didn't hurt right away but the coming week was erm... bad.

Probably not my "primary focus", I don't even think I have a focus, just trying to have fun, try new things and see where it gets, but I do get your point, especially that I am not a teen anymore, have a decent job and can choose what to do .

So little gains and how far he's got? Tells quite well what makes the difference when someone is really good!

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"It takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place."

I thought it was interesting what he said about "speed endurance": basically you need to get up to speed and work on being able to hold it for longer and longer. IIRC, Arthur Lydiard said something very similar about max efforts and he was a running coach coming at it from kind of a different path.

That may be hard to do and do all the gym work. You think about all the work that you had to do to get the FTP that you have now and presumably you are now going to divert some of that time to gym work. I'm not sure how you can maintain FTP and recover from the gym work. You may have to accept a temporary decrease in FTP.

On top of that, FTP work and strength generally don't go together well from what I have read. (I'm not an expert, just quoting others.) In fact in the Aussie document that I posted, Rodgers says something like "volume kills your speed" and that's why his elite sprinters do very little endurance riding. Too much volume of any kind kills speed in his opinion. Now, of course, keep in mind that we're talking about the very elite level athletes who are focused on one thing, not people like us that hack at a few different aspects of cycling. However, my understanding is that it can be hard to build strength at the same time that you are trying to recruit muscles to work aerobically.

Another thing I have been told is that your riding will be awful while trying to build strength through weight training. Once you back off the weight and let your body recover (requiring 4-6 weeks), good things can happen.

I got interested in this stuff a few years ago when I realized that my top-end (30 sec-3 minute) power was not what I would like it to be. I consulted a local coach (Ph.D. in Exercise Physiology, former pro team director). He feels that the best way to improve short-term power is to increase the density of Type II muscle fibers. The best way to do this is to build muscle through weight training. The weight work is not to increase force generation and strength (as primarily roadies, we don’t need that), more a question of other things. I thought about it and I put the idea on the shelf because I wasn't interested in the time investment and increasing the girth of my quads.

Then this past summer, I was in a pretty bad race accident* and I have been doing some of my rehabilitation work at the gym. Since I’m not racing cyclo-cross this Fall and since I’m a naturally curious person and will be racing more track next year anyway, I figured I’d give 4-5 months of strength work a try and see what happens. I mean, I’ve tried a lot of other things with only limited success, why not try something I haven’t done yet, you know? So I’ve been at it and I’m just starting the heavy weight phase now. I’m curious to see where this goes.


*a fellow competitor was sprinting from way too far back and rammed me from behind at >45 kph. I fractured three ribs, fractured a bone in my back and I have a grade II shoulder separation. It’s the type of thing that isn’t supposed to happen in masters racing. Except it did.

I am right there in that mode, but then again I am a lifter that enjoys cycling so for me lifting comes before cycling. However, because I am also in my 2nd week of a strength periodization (I train with weights year round, but now I am into this phase) my legs are still sore from training on Monday.

I tried to do some indoor training on the spin bike, but I could not muster up much more than 0.5 IF.
4 days later and all I can do is a few minutes of cardio this morning to warm up my legs just so I can spend some time stretching.

Now imagine that I train moderately heavy year round and for the past 27 years and yet even with all of those years of adaptation my legs still get sore on occassion. What I expect (based on years of experience) is in a few more weeks of moving into this concentrated strength training cycle that recovery will go a bit faster.

Bad thing is I am leading a group ride with a bunch of aggressive cyclists on Saturday. In my ride notice I state this it is not a "no drop ride." Can you guess who is likely to get dropped. Good thing that I know the route.

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That's why I am being very careful with this. I want to be able to walk too, you know?

On the opposite end of the spectrum, the Oz coach said that the sprinters do as much as 33 sets (12 or them warm-up sets). I guess when you have all morning and aren't trying to ride (hard) much otherwise, it doesn't matter.

I guess you may not be leading for long.

That's exactly how I approach the thing too, keyword being "curious" of how things work and how my body reacts. I don't have any goal of winning, I couldn't actually care less, it's only about winning myself and learning something in the process.

For ftp part, I think I am so far from "the very elite level athletes who are focused on one thing" that a day of gym and another one of plyos should not hurt ftp-side (too much) especially that I am just starting my third year of structured training so in principle it's not on the "edge" yet (hopefully I am right).

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"It takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place."

Steve, I think he was referring to the old school 4-6 hours of mindless riding as volume type of work. Since Frost and others now focus on the shorter 2x20s and the such there is much less of a chance of losing that much speed especially if he is training it. Speed can be gained and lost very quickly though as we all know from our L6 and L7 work, FTP is harder to gain and to lose. Frost may have to take a minor hit in the FTP dept, but then again he may not. Probably will depend a lot on current workload and his ability to recover.

FWIW I bet Frost could already ride a 1:07-1:08 under favorable conditions on a fast track.

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-Meek
"Some people train to look pretty. I just train so I can be the strongest man there is. And then again, I'm already pretty." -Magnus Samuelsson

Well that should be a very fast track with negative rolling resistance and so thin air that I'd need a scuba system . Aerodynamics playing a huge part. Look at Boardman in his WR pursuit. First km under 1:09 and that's where he started accelerating!

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"It takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place."

Hmm, I made a some calculations and 1:08 would require (eg.) 20 sec first lap (250m) and then maintaining 56.25 kmh for the rest.
20 sec first lap could be just within reach in theory (or looking at my workouts, which are not from full stop but from some sort of a track stand). In reality I don't know how much time is lost in actual start. And then the rest... no way. Assuming top track, with top tires (0.002 crr), my tested CdA (how well that could held trying to max power?) of 0.27 it would require maintaining about 660w average for the rest 48 secs and after all out 20 secs, I'm already fried. It would be quite like Swampy very well described earlier .

Well, nice speculations in lack of actual doing, waiting for next summer to come (last two rides have ended up in a hail storm )

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"It takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place."

Frost, you're such a humble, nice guy. Remember folks this is the same man with good aerodynamics and a 360+ FTP that doesn't think he can go under 60min on a 40k TT...

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-Meek
"Some people train to look pretty. I just train so I can be the strongest man there is. And then again, I'm already pretty." -Magnus Samuelsson

I maybe some descent numbers (and I do have two powermeters to back them up) but I have to be humble until some actual results prove otherwise

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"It takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place."

The Kilo is fun to watch because those who pace well finish absolutely fcuked outa their heads. Those who pace badly usually go 'bang' in a big way with a lap left and ride the last lap fcuked outa their heads but lose so much speed it's almost painful to watch.

I'd argue that pacing in the Kilo, percentage wise, has a bigger effect on the overall result than messing up the pacing in something significantly longer - say a 40km TT.

How do you ride into the side of someones house? You go to some God forsaken barren location where it's sheeting it down with rain, where the farmers drive their tractors down really steep hills, coating the roads with cow sh1t and diesel and then you let silly cyclists (ie me) go down the steep hills really fast. Camapagnolo Athena brakes (circa 1991) were never known for their braking prowess even in the dry. In the wet, as I discovered, they were just slightly more useful that sticking wooden sticks in the back spokes (just like kids too when they're young to make that cool noise) for slowing down. Introduce cowdung and diesel and you might as well ride nohanded, blindfolded and play a game of one handed clapping whilst you're hurtling down the hill towards a sharp turn....

... needless to say, I couldn't make the turn. Using several tons of old Welsh stone to arrest my speed wasn't the intended plan.