Getting my 1st FTP # ? - Page 2

Sorry, but I don't see anything impractical or wasteful in this 90 min indoor training ride. Sure, I could've done a 3 x 20 min session instead, but why waste an extra 10 min on "mental recoveries" . "Testing is training, training is testing", afterall. If someone can muster a 1 hr FTP effort, there's no need to sell them short by calling it a waste of time. It's one thing to give sensible training advice, quite another to project one's own shortcomings. IOW, just because it would've been a waste of your time doesn't mean it was for me. In fact, I think that 20 min tests are a waste of time and I never do them. They're not even listed among the list of most reliable ways of determining one's FTP (seven deadly sins). I know you already know that, but I mentioned it for the benefit of others who my not.

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+1 I was thinking that just couldn't find the words and there they are... Even better get your average heart rate for a one hour (indoor) TT and you won't have to do it again for a long time.

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broken record... Guilty

Maybe it's just semantics, but tracking 20 minute or any other long training efforts is offered as the second best way to determine FTP behind full 40K TTs. Sure DocSpoc talks about just tracking his 20 minute power, but if that number is hit in regular training and it's repeatable in and between sessions then according to Andy it's a very good estimate of FTP under ideal conditions. So DocSpoc talks about tracking 20 minute power which is fine and Andy talks about doing the same thing (or 25 minute or 30 minute or whatever you do as a regular long L4 training interval) and calling it FTP.

I'm no fan of 20 minute *0.95 or any other universal conversion factor that doesn't take into account the individual athlete's AWC/CP relationships but tracking regular long training intervals makes a ton of sense to me regardless of what you call it.

-Dave

since when are "many people" equal to you?? if you're going to take the time quote me, at least read the quote that you quote. my post specifically refers to me and to others that have a hard time or can't be bothered getting up for a 1hr effort.. i'm just saying for them and me it's unnecessary an a waste of time... an extra 10mins for ***ME*** to get a better workout.. that's SO worth it.. actually lots of times i do 10mins between intervals... ewww... i'm so weak... LMAO!!!

it is kind of funny that you think because you routinely do 1hr periods of threshold in your workouts that puts you on some sort of pedestal or something... seriously, who the hell cares? LOL.. i care about what, how etc i can do to perform better in competition... i don't spend time patting myself on the back and self aggrandizing because of what i can do in training. the yard stick is performance in competition.. if i get a better workout doing 3x20 that's what i do.. if it was better for me to do 60x1 that's what i would do..

do you seriously thing that doing 1hr thesh... makes you better than others? that's pretty weird man!

and again... with the reading comprehension... look at the number 6 from you own link (the list goes from worst to best)... so using long intervals is the second best method on the list.. how deep can the foot go in the mouth... lol...

Yes, tracking numbers is fine by me too. In fact, I track my 2 second through ~4hrs powers on my MMP . But the reason FTP is defined as 1 hr maximal power is because it is a determinant of aerobic fitness (and therefore cycling), while 20 min power is not. If someone does a bunch of 1 min intervals and their 20 min improves it is in no way indicative of an increase in FTP. That's precisely why you still see a lot of people claiming to have improved their FTP by doing short intervals. Didn't I read something like that on Wattage today?

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Daayyum!

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a) aerobic fitness is only one of the POTENTIAL determinant of cycling fitness... arguably the most important one, but still only one.. the best evidence of cycling fitness is results in your chosen discipline..

b) not talking about using the results of a 20 min effort with excellent rest, perfect motivation etc, etc... talking about using what you typically do day-in-day-out for 20-30min from day to day under normal training load.. Dr Coggan has determined that this is very close to 1hr power (with perfect rest, motivation etc).. i say who the hell cares about how that number compares to 1hr power? if that's what you're doing in training use that and your race results to track progress... use all your other numbers to figure out any potential problems...

c) there is no real, practical reason to track 1hr power... it's just not necessary, from a practical going out on the road choosing a power to ride at and doing your workout point of view... and this i'm saying even for you. maybe for a totally uninitiated newbie.. it could help them get in the ball park of where they are supposed to be, but for anyone who's even done a few workouts... it's just not going to be that helpful

ok.. that sounds really good.. but tell us precisely how you actually use your FTP number to achieve this?

ok, you've just completed your test exactly as prescribe... you have that number in hand and you do what? ...precisely now... don't want vague descriptions and theories.. i want to know how exactly you use that number... i'm all about practicality.

So did you miss the part about Deadly Sin number 6 or are you saying Dr. Coggan is wrong in suggesting that regular repeatable long intervals are the second best way to estimate FTP. Clearly he believes that long interval progress(and that covers 20 minutes) is a very good indication of FTP progress.

Spend some time with a Monod spreadsheet and I think you'll find that in general if both your one minute and 20 minute MMPs improve as a result of any training then your FTP will also have improved. Sure you can construct a 'Monod lever' such that large increases in 1 minute MMP coupled to small increases in 20 minute MMP show no FTP gain or even an FTP decrease but in general for reasonable changes increases in 20 minute MMP typically indicate increases in FTP. If your your 20 minute power increase is greater than 1/20 of your 1 minute power increase your CP and predicted 60 minute MMP will both increase.

Try it, plug your current 1 minute and 20 minute power numbers into a Monod spreadsheet then bump up your 1 minute by 50 watts and your 20 minute by 5 watts. See what that does to your CP and 60 minute MMP. So even if you're focusing on 1 minute improvement if it happens to yield a significant improvement in 20 minute MMP then your FTP has in general risen with the exception being cases where your 1 minute MMP increase is more than 20 times your 20 minute MMP increase.

Folk's MMP curves are typically pretty flat by the time you reach 20 minutes and intervals that long really are good ways to estimate sustainable power and FTP. If you don't trust the extrapolation from 20, then track 25 or 30 minute efforts which are realllllly out on the flat part of the curve. The point is you don't have to track exact one hour efforts to track FTP, they just have to be predominately metabolic efforts and 20 minutes is long enough to satisfy that condition.

-Dave

Well, I guess I was wrong and doing a 1 hr FTP test is not necessary and I could be just as good by simply doing 20 min intervals. I wonder though why they put in that deadly sin # 7 in there. The one that nobody is mentioning and the one which is the best way to determine one's FTP.

BTW, since someone misread what I wrote (ironically), I don't routinely do 1hr FTP tests (roughly twice a year), but I do believe in the benefits of riding straight 60 minutes @ 90-95% FTP and then extending the time as opposed to N x 20 min. I have seen improvements every year from it and that includes racing results.

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As do I, especially indoors on the trainer it sometimes just seems easier and more efficient to get through the break in period once and just get in some good solid work.

I've got nothing against a full hour test if you've got the motivation and venue (and I know you do, and I did but it got tougher with the move to Seattle). I definitely view my 40K TTs as gold standard FTP tests but with the usual problem of TT bike power differences (have gotten better this past season) and they're usually a bit less than an hour

I think it's great if folks can stay focused for full hour long FTP tests but it's equally valid to use sufficiently long but shorter efforts and you seemed to be strongly disagreeing with that notion.

Perhaps I read too much into your posts...
-Dave

No I didn't miss it, but a good indication of progress ("Wow, I'm doing 20 min intervals faster than last year!") doesn't tell you your FTP. It's all an estimate. When I initially did 20 min tests I was off by 10-15 watts.
There's only one way to check if the Monod spreadsheet is correct in determining one's FTP and that's a 1 hr TT. It is the gold standard. I don't know why people don't think it's important.

For crying out loud, we're athletes not nerds. Doesn't anyone want to know how fast they can go for an hour, or even if? Doesn't anyone want to know how to pace a 40K TT? What is this 20 min is good enough crap? When you watch someone solo in for a Paris Roubaix win, do you say "Wow!" or "What a showoff". Isn't that what racing is, showing off our talents, toughness, and skills? Yeah, I can do a 1hr test and I'm proud of it and I don't believe in the lowest common denominator type of training that some subscribe to.

Edit: Dave, that last paragraph wasn't aimed at you. Just a rant.

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.........lurker speaks

I appreciate the public discussion from you guys. As a newbie to all of this I hope I can sift through the different perspectives and head down the right path. It seems that each of you are doing good or at least feel as if you are or have positive data indicating as if you are successful on the path you have chosen.


............lurker goes back to lurking

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Because doing so often leads people down the wrong path training-wise (just ask Gordo Byrn ).