Getting my 1st FTP # ? - Page 3

I do/they are. However, there is a significant difference between the power that you can routinely produce in training during long efforts (e.g., 2 x 20 min) aimed at raising functional threshold power, and a one-off maximal 20 min test. That is why I emphasized "routinely" in my footnote to the original 7DS post.

so please clarify why it is that you rate using long intervals done during regular training as the second best way of estimating 1hr power?

do you disagree with the notion that a rise in 20min power is almost assured of being associated with a rise in 1hr power? that a rise in anaerbic capcity even a significant one won't move [edit]20min power significantly?

I did my first ever full-on 60 minutes non-stop @ on the trainer this week, @ 97% of FT. It was not intentional. Originally I thought oh, I will do 2 x 30 or 3 x 20, but ended up not wanting to stop at 20 or 30 minutes. So then going for the full 60 seemed plausible.

It felt like a nice accomplishment for a newbie like me. Plus I saved myself the usual 5 minute break(s) between 'sets'.

In retrospect though it seems like a fantastic exercise in training my mind to stay focused and concentrate on doing a full 60 minutes. Especially since I don't have any routes I can ride for 60 minutes nonstop nearby.

So a good exercise for the mind and will. Not to mention it is nice to sort of 'prove it to yourself' that you can produce a certain wattage for 60 minutes even though the monod calculations already told me that I could 'produce X watts for 60'. Putting aside the mental aspect I doubt that metabolically it makes me any fitter than doing 2/30 or 3/20.

If 20 minutes are all I can do, then I'll do 3, or if it is 30 then I'll do 2, and if I feel especially chipper, then maybe 60 minutes nonstop. Do your best, isn't that one of the mantra's?

you can ignore the 1st question in my post above.. didn't see you've already answered it here.. also it sort of implicitly answers the second question too... so you can basically forget it too.

so what are you going on about then? did you see me suggest doing a 20min test, fully rested, full motivation etc.. to approx FTP?

here's a quote from my 1st post in this thread "also.. FTP is also approx. what you typically can do for a 20min effort in training"

made the point that a) doing 1hr tests and intervals are not necessary, and you can use 20-30min intervals done during regular training track progress.. i also made the point that why would you call or try to interpret a 20-30min interval done during training as FTP.. why not just call it what it is "a 20min interval done during training".. if your ave for your 20mins intervals starts going up your aerobic fitness is going up... there is no need to calculate or think about FTP or do 1hr tests at all?

the last important point i made was that cycling fitness is closely related to aerobic fitness but there is more to cycling fitness than just aerobic fitness.. the best test for cycling fitness is your racing results in your chosen discipline(s).

Well, for one thing, it gives you a nice indication of progress. How can you reliably know whether your training is making you better unless you test yourself? The FTP number gives a nice objective measuring stick to judge yourself by.

As far as how you use the FTP number during training, once you have an FTP number, you know what power you have to ride at to be pushing past your current FTP, and what power you can ride at to recover. If you don't have numbers, you have to judge your workouts solely in terms of how you're feeling, and feelings might encourage you to try too hard and burn out, or ride too lightly during recovery.

As far as hard numbers, you'd need to consult a qualified coach if you wanted hard numbers that somebody would actually use, and I'm by no means qualified.

I could certainly throw out some B.S. numbers as an example. I've got a Monod spreadsheet open that says a rider with a 300 watt 60 min power should be able to ride at 316 for about 20 minutes.
So, assuming the rider is fresh and well recovered and all that, there's no reason at all to ride below 300 watts. We know that directly from the test. We'd like to push past the numbers we currently have, so we have to ride above 300 watts. Now, if we did an honest FTP test, we can't ride above 300 watts for 60 minutes, so we ride at maybe 316 watts and try to push that past the 20 minute mark.
Eventually, you observe a bit of an overtraining effect, so you start backing off maybe down to 280 watts, and you let your body recover.
Without the numbers, what can you do? Ride hard, ride long, ride fast, and hope that you're putting the right stress on your body to improve your FTP?

no argument about numbers... i have a powerTap and 3yrs of of numbers that inform me of what to do and have never found the need to nail down FTP with any degree of accuracy or do a 1hr test to a) tell me how hard to ride in training or racing and b) to track my progress

see the post above by Dr Coggan (he came up with the term FTP.. i think?).. see he said that tracking power in long intervals during training is a good indicator of aerobic fitness.. he relates that power to closely alining to FTP, but i think that it's completely unnecessary step.. it's 'the power you routinely do for 20,30 whatever you do in training'... call it what it is. this also means... that he agrees with me, that doing 1hr tests for most are just not really necessary..

we are talking about FTP in particular here.. in any case i'm not going to repeat everything that i and others have said in this thread.. read the thread to understand why nailing down FTP is really not that important...

i guess the other point i would REALLY like to stress... and i'm sounding like a broken record even to myself now.. is that all the predefined zones, Monod spreadsheet, calculators etc.. are really just useful for brand spank'n new newbies.. they only try to estimate what a typical person might do.. what you or i can do could be quite different. using the calculator, cookie cutter approach to training can potentially be very detrimental to your progression as well because it's only an estimation (can also end with you riding too hard or too easy)... but people take it as gospel.. the point is that if you determine that you need to do 20min intervals and want to know how hard to do them.. just do a a few 20min intervals workouts with a power meter.. they are totally self correcting and you'll know in no time exactly how hard to ride them.. what and easy one is, what a hard one is.. knowing FTP isn't going to tell you how hard YOU should be riding them or any other length interval.. and it's not going to write your training plan for you either.. that's the point. you simply do not need to know your FTP to train effectively.. it's not necessary.. numbers yes, FTP no..

Good for you! I don't know whether doing 3 x 20 or 1 x 60 is metabolically that different, but I'm convinced that it will make you a better cyclist. This is the "experience" that sets experienced riders apart from the newbies. You now know what a 1 hr effort feels like and how to cope with it. You may one day find yourself in a break or a chase that lasts that long if not longer. I did.

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For the record, I don't deny that DS #6 is a legitimate way of estimating progress. In fact, I upped my FTP setting in WKO this summer by 10 W based solely on observation (e.g. without a formal test). I do take exception to the notion that 1 hr test is a waste of time.

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Wow, I never expected to get all of this great help, I am eating all of this up. Thanks to all of you for putting your 411 in. I'm still feeling out my FT boundaries on the trainer, along with my time limits, but I went out riding yesterday (a nice 70*F teaser) and I can say that it was a totally different ride now that I'm factoring in cadence and power. Much much better.

Tons more to learn, thanks again everyone.

-Greg

Thanks :-)

I did another one of these 1 x 60 self-flogging exercises today and it was positively grueling. First 30-35 minutes were fine, but after that I kept having thoughts of stopping. They start as little creeping hints but by 50 minutes you would give almost anything to quit right then and there.

You say it makes you a better cyclist, I tend to think there's something to that. Since peak performance almost definitely has both physical and mental/motivational components, then taking care of each part of the equation makes sense. Can we truly quantify the effect of being highly motivated? I mean what is highly motivated for me, maybe is not all that much to somebody else. I am going to guess that power training system can't pinpoint exactly how much, for each given person, the motivational effect is. Isn't that the whole train with power, (using rpe, etc) and not 'by power' idea?

Having done a 60 min TT now, then at least I know how it feels both to complete it and all along the way. When I work outdoors, then I can better gauge how long I could have maintained a hard 30 minute effort that ended due to some interruption like a light or long downhill.

Maybe someone doing 45 minute crits or points races though might say who cares about a 1 hour TT and just work on 20-30 minute chunks.

For me, since I have no 1 hour outdoor TT route, doing them on the trainer is the only way.

LOL! Nothing that a little ibuprofen can't sort out for you! If you've found the thread, you'll know what I'm talking about...

FWIW, I'm a strictly a crit and track guy and doing 45min -1hr TTs on a Computrainer (indoor TT series), or at home on my poorman's CT (RealAxiom V2 by Elite), was the meat of my base training last year. I will attest that I was definintely stronger this season because of the steady diet of threshold work over the winter. I'll be doing more of the same this winter and early spring...

I was wondering if you were going to get your thread started again and keep us posted on your efforts. Especially since we no longer have the ongoing it's killing me thread

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Hey Felt. Appreciate the interest. Thought about continuing it; just may do it...FYI, current training RX is 1.5hrs/day of L2 (230-250w). Been doing this for 13 consecutive days and will continue until the TT series starts early next month. Once the series starts, I'll transition into L4/L1 mode.

At least give us a link on occasion to how you stand in the series like you did last winter.

Your L2 is my L4

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Until you start doing 3 hr rides with IF .97 again.

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