Rice Vinegar and Rice Wine Vinegar are the same thing

There has been frequent confusion on RFC about "any
difference " between Rice Vinegar and Rice Wine Vinegar.
According to this Asian culinary site, they are the same thing--
just a difference in labeling. ("Rice Wine" is a different
matter. It is a wine and not a vinegar. It would be found in
a wine shop, not in the vinegar section or the Asian food
section of your supermarket. )

" In recipes, rice vinegar is sometimes also called "rice
wine vinegar." So says this Asian culinary site.

http://chinesefood.about.com/library/bld_r.htm

On 11 Apr 2004 00:35:18 GMT, nancree@aol.com (Nancree) wrote:

>
>There has been frequent confusion on RFC about "any
>difference " between Rice Vinegar and Rice Wine Vinegar.
>According to this Asian culinary site, they are the same
>thing--just a difference in labeling. ("Rice Wine" is a
>different matter. It is a wine and not a vinegar. It would
>be found in a wine shop, not in the vinegar section or the
>Asian food section of your supermarket. )
>
>" In recipes, rice vinegar is sometimes also called "rice
>wine vinegar." So says this Asian culinary site.
>
>http://chinesefood.about.com/library/bld_r.htm

OTOH,

"Rice vinegars are made from fermented rice. Rice wine
vinegars are generally made from the lees (dregs) of the
wine. " from http://www.ochef.com/595.htm

It doesn't seem to be a distinction with much difference,
but my bottle of rice vinegar says "made from fremented
rice" while ads for rice wine vinegar mention being brewed
(or "distilled") from sake or rice wine.

"Nancree" <nancree@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040410203518.22183.00000162@mb-m06.aol.com...
>
> There has been frequent confusion on RFC about "any
> difference " between
Rice
> Vinegar and Rice Wine Vinegar. According to this Asian
> culinary site,
they are
> the same thing--just a difference in labeling. ("Rice
> Wine" is a
different
> matter. It is a wine and not a vinegar. It would be found
> in a wine shop,
not
> in the vinegar section or the Asian food section of your
> supermarket. )
>
> " In recipes, rice vinegar is sometimes also called "rice
> wine vinegar." So says this Asian culinary site.
>
> http://chinesefood.about.com/library/bld_r.htm
>

Right - just don't call it mirin.

Dimitri

"Frogleg" <frogleg@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:gjei70l92efmcl0ul2be77b4b7un2f7e4l@4ax.com...
> On 11 Apr 2004 00:35:18 GMT, nancree@aol.com
> (Nancree) wrote:
>
> >
> >There has been frequent confusion on RFC about "any
> >difference " between
Rice
> >Vinegar and Rice Wine Vinegar. According to this Asian
> >culinary site,
they are
> >the same thing--just a difference in labeling. ("Rice
> >Wine" is a
different
> >matter. It is a wine and not a vinegar. It would be found
> >in a wine shop,
not
> >in the vinegar section or the Asian food section of your
> >supermarket. )
> >
> >" In recipes, rice vinegar is sometimes also called "rice
> >wine vinegar." So says this Asian culinary site.
> >
> >http://chinesefood.about.com/library/bld_r.htm
>
>
> OTOH,
>
> "Rice vinegars are made from fermented rice. Rice wine
> vinegars are generally made from the lees (dregs) of the
> wine. " from http://www.ochef.com/595.htm
>
> It doesn't seem to be a distinction with much difference,
> but my bottle of rice vinegar says "made from fremented
> rice" while ads for rice wine vinegar mention being brewed
> (or "distilled") from sake or rice wine.
>
>

But since the results are indistinguishable, does it
really matter?

--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

Frogleg wrote:

> On 11 Apr 2004 00:35:18 GMT, nancree@aol.com
> (Nancree) wrote:
>
>
>>There has been frequent confusion on RFC about "any
>>difference " between Rice Vinegar and Rice Wine Vinegar.
>>According to this Asian culinary site, they are the same
>>thing--just a difference in labeling. ("Rice Wine" is a
>>different matter. It is a wine and not a vinegar. It would
>>be found in a wine shop, not in the vinegar section or the
>>Asian food section of your supermarket. )
>>
>>" In recipes, rice vinegar is sometimes also called "rice
>>wine vinegar." So says this Asian culinary site.
>>
>>http://chinesefood.about.com/library/bld_r.htm
>
> OTOH,
>
> "Rice vinegars are made from fermented rice. Rice wine
> vinegars are generally made from the lees (dregs) of the
> wine. " from http://www.ochef.com/595.htm
>
> It doesn't seem to be a distinction with much difference,
> but my bottle of rice vinegar says "made from fremented
> rice" while ads for rice wine vinegar mention being brewed
> (or "distilled") from sake or rice wine.

And, to add a further hairsplitting distinction, sake is
technically a beer, not a wine. A very flat beer, but a beer
nonetheless.

pastorio

On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 14:48:24 -0400, Bob (this one) wrote:
> And, to add a further hairsplitting distinction, sake is
> technically a beer, not a wine. A very flat beer, but a
> beer nonetheless.

True, or, not. Words don't work that way, except when they
do.

The word "beer" has fairly specific connotations, and it's
always been used (in English, I have no opinion about other
languages) to refer to a malted beverage. Sake is not malted
(that the once distilled beer from which Scotch is distilled
is referred to as "low wines" contributes nothing _useful_
to the discussion); there are records of the use of saliva-
borne amylase to make sake, these days it's all two-step
fermentation aided by an enzyme producing fungus (the fungus
makes an enzyme that breaks down the undigestible starches
into yummy sugars, the yeasts mug them for the sugars
(anthropomorphically speaking)).

Beer is a low strength carbonated beverage fermented from
malted grain. If beer means 'fermented from (malted) GRAIN',
sake might be beer. If beer means 'fermented from MALTED
grain', it certainly isn't. That a strong fermented still
beverage made in the same manner as beer is referred to as
"barley wine" implies that carbonation and or strength are,
or at the time that usage became popular were, dispositive.

In several scientific fields, there are "splitters" (people
who slice groups ever smaller, based on ever more esoteric
criteria) and lumpers (people who try to maximise the
population under any term). I'm a splitter; I'd argue that
sake is a different thing, and that only rarely would a
native speaker of English see, taste, or observe the
construction of, sake, and call it beer.

Because, if sake is beer, Miller is, arguably, sake,
"brewed with the best Louisiana rice!", and that would be a
bad thing.

Martin
--
Martin Golding | If I'd wanted all that water in my beer,
Dod #0236 KotLQ | why would I have paid so much to have it
dehydrated?

"Martin Golding" <fogobum@attbi.com> wrote in message
newsan.2004.04.12.02.43.37.866823@attbi.com...
>
> Because, if sake is beer, Miller is, arguably, sake,
> "brewed with the best Louisiana rice!", and that would be
> a bad thing.
>
> Martin
> --

Miller used to make a point of saying they do not use rice
in their beer. Has their formula changed? If so it is not
perceptible to my taste.

Charlie

On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 14:48:24 -0400, "Bob (this one)" <Bob@nospam.com>
wrote:

>Frogleg wrote:
>
>>
>> It doesn't seem to be a distinction with much difference,
>> but my bottle of rice vinegar says "made from fremented
>> rice" while ads for rice wine vinegar mention being
>> brewed (or "distilled") from sake or rice wine.
>
>And, to add a further hairsplitting distinction, sake is
>technically a beer, not a wine. A very flat beer, but a
>beer nonetheless.

I read that sake is technically the name for alcohol and
that the alcohol content of 'sake' was comparable to that of
wine (around 16%). Unless it's fortified with other alcohol.

Martin Golding wrote:

> On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 14:48:24 -0400, Bob (this one) wrote:
>
>>And, to add a further hairsplitting distinction, sake is
>>technically a beer, not a wine. A very flat beer, but a
>>beer nonetheless.
>
> True, or, not. Words don't work that way, except when
> they do.

Couldna said it better myself. And I have an English degree.
From an actual university.

> The word "beer" has fairly specific connotations, and it's
> always been used (in English, I have no opinion about
> other languages) to refer to a malted beverage. Sake is
> not malted (that the once distilled beer from which Scotch
> is distilled is referred to as "low wines" contributes
> nothing _useful_ to the discussion);

And the first-run distillate is called "high wine" (just
wrote an article about distillation for an encyclopedia).

> there are records of the use of saliva-borne amylase to
> make sake, these days it's all two-step fermentation
> aided by an enzyme producing fungus

Aspergillus *****, among others.

> (the fungus makes an enzyme that breaks down the
> undigestible starches into yummy sugars, the yeasts mug
> them for the sugars (anthropomorphically speaking)).

And, interestingly, one of the enzymes the Japanese use to
begin the sake-making process is used in Beano. Which is
neither a beer nor a wine and is designed to minimize one of
the secondary effects of beer consumption. And Brussels
sprouts. Not to mention all their kindred brassicas.

> Beer is a low strength carbonated beverage fermented from
> malted grain. If beer means 'fermented from (malted)
> GRAIN', sake might be beer. If beer means 'fermented from
> MALTED grain', it certainly isn't. That a strong fermented
> still beverage made in the same manner as beer is referred
> to as "barley wine" implies that carbonation and or
> strength are, or at the time that usage became popular
> were, dispositive.

One of the traditional distinctions is the source
material. If fruit, it's wine. If grain, beer. Not very
subtle, to be sure.

> In several scientific fields, there are "splitters"
> (people who slice groups ever smaller, based on ever more
> esoteric criteria) and lumpers (people who try to maximise
> the population under any term). I'm a splitter; I'd argue
> that sake is a different thing, and that only rarely would
> a native speaker of English see, taste, or observe the
> construction of, sake, and call it beer.

See, this is the dark side of orthography. The side that
says popular opinion should be considered in creating
definitions. Where would all those effete,
armgarter/eyeshade types who sit in dark garrets writing
dictionaries be if we let the hoi polloi have a role in the
subject. It would be the ruin of us all, like having to
consume great quantities of corn syrup solids or reality TV.

Ok, for the sake of harmony, I'll support your notion of
splitting. Henceforward, sake will be a separate category
(if that's what you think is best, apparently being a
scientist and all).

> Because, if sake is beer, Miller is, arguably, sake,
> "brewed with the best Louisiana rice!", and that would be
> a bad thing.

Um, I don't think they use rice, but I could be wrong.
Although there's certainly nothing wrong with Louisiana.

'Nother glass...?

Pastorio

On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 21:12:05 -0400, Bob (this one) wrote:
> Martin Golding wrote:
>> Because, if sake is beer, Miller is, arguably, sake,
>> "brewed with the best Louisiana rice!", and that would be
>> a bad thing.

I believe, on careful reconsideration, that I have unfairly
disparaged an honest purveyor of beer. On our motorcycle
trip to Louisiana, the first little cafe we stopped at in
Cajun country had a Budweiser (my slowly recovering memory
tells me) calendar on the wall, with, in letters readable
across the room "Brewed with the Best Louisiana Rice!". I
have wrongully attributed to Miller that minim of goodness
which is rightfully Bud's.

> Um, I don't think they use rice, but I could be wrong.

I believe that all the American style beers add extra starch
or sugar, to increase the alcohol content without risking
adding any flavor. In the Northwest breweries I believe I've
mostly seen corn, but I haven't visited a major brand
brewery for decades.

> Although there's certainly nothing wrong with Louisiana.

Lafayette Louisiana has some of the best food in the nation.
It's the heart of Cajun country, and hasn't been brutally
touristed like N'awlins.

We're planning a trip back next year. We'll be eating off
plan.

Martin
--
Martin Golding | Studies indicate that undernutrition
increases lifespan. DoD #236 | Eat good, die young. Leave a
big corpse.

On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 09:15:42 +0000, Charles Gifford wrote:
> "Martin Golding" <fogobum@attbi.com> wrote in message
> newsan.2004.04.12.02.43.37.866823@attbi.com...

>> Because, if sake is beer, Miller is, arguably, sake,
>> "brewed with the best Louisiana rice!", and that would be
>> a bad thing.

> Miller used to make a point of saying they do not use rice
> in their beer. Has their formula changed? If so it is not
> perceptible to my taste.

I was wrong. *Budweiser* uses rice. Miller uses
assorted sugars.

My bad,

Martin
--
Martin Golding | I don't have to be right. DoD #0236 | I
have a _recipe_ for crow.

"Martin Golding" <fogobum@attbi.com> wrote in message
newsan.2004.04.13.04.30.15.522784@attbi.com...
> On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 09:15:42 +0000, Charles Gifford wrote:
> > "Martin Golding" <fogobum@attbi.com> wrote in message
> > newsan.2004.04.12.02.43.37.866823@attbi.com...
>
> >> Because, if sake is beer, Miller is, arguably, sake,
> >> "brewed with the best Louisiana rice!", and that would
> >> be a bad thing.
>
> > Miller used to make a point of saying they do not use
> > rice in their
beer.
> > Has their formula changed? If so it is not perceptible
> > to my taste.
>
> I was wrong. *Budweiser* uses rice. Miller uses
> assorted sugars.
>
>
> My bad,
>
> Martin

That's ok Martin. I like sugar in my beer I guess! ;-)

Charlie