when is the best time to load up on protein? - Page 2

Duckwah · #16 08-08.-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpvan

Sorry, I have to disagree on this point. Any serious weightlifter/bodybuilder consumes lots of protein - 1-2 grams per pound of bodyweight per day. This is Weightlifting 101.

Serious weightlifting tears down muscles and lots of protein is necessary to rebuild and grow those muscles. The general idea is that you want to make certain that whenever your muscles are inclined to grow, they have ample protein available to do so.

Serious weightlifting also burns a lot of calories. It's not aerobic, but it's probably the most difficult anaerobic exercise most people will ever do. A full-out weight workout means pushing your muscles to failure at least a dozen times during 60-90 minutes. Failure means that if someone offered you a million dollars to push the bar through one more repetition, you couldn't even think of doing it.

This is a lot different than cycling, training for cycling, etc.

The fact that weightlifters eat a lot of protein doesn't necessarily mean their bodies are using it all. These guys eat a lot of protein because they are afraid that they may not be getting enough.

I doubt if anyone has ever taken a group of bodybuilders and then gradually reduced their protein intake until they started to lose muscle to determine the exact amount of protein required to maintain a given bodyweight under high intensity training.

Serious weight training shouldn't include multiple bouts of exercise to failure, it risks injury and is far less conducive to strength gains than multiple sets of submaximal weights. It is quite possible to become extremely strong without ever going to failure.

Training to failure is great for hypertrophy but very poor for strength.

ric_stern/RST · #17 08-09.-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpvan

Ric - With due respect, you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to weightlifting and protein consumption.

I am a serious weightlifter and have been for several years. During that time, I've worked out with the following types of weightlifters:

seriously, you won't find any evidence to support yours/weightlifters ideas. whereas, you will find lots of supporting evidence for what i wrote.

Quote:

- Professional Bodybuilders
- NFL Linemen
- Professional, College and HS Strength and Conditioning Coaches
- Successful Competitive Powerlifters

I've spoken with members of each of these groups about appropriate diet for serious weightlifting. The first thing that every single one of them mentioned was high protein consumption. As I mentioned previously, the standard is 1-2 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight daily.

just because they're good at lifting weights, doesn't mean they know anything about physiology and nutrition.

Quote:

Now, I'm sure that you know more than people who lift weights for a living, but when dozens of the most muscular and strongest guys I've ever talked with say that protein consumption is the answer, I'm going to listen to them.

when dozens of muscular and strong people take drugs for increased performance, do you follow them?

Quote:

As I recall from previous posts, you're big into debunking "myths". I seem to recall that you contend that Lance Armstrong and Chris Carmichael are promoting a myth when they say that cyclists can benefit from weightlifting. Now you're saying that every professional bodybuilder on the planet is promoting a myth when he says you need to eat a lot of protein in order to build muscle.

yes.

ric

Beastt · #18 08-09.-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpvan

Ric - With due respect, you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to weightlifting and protein consumption.

I am a serious weightlifter and have been for several years. During that time, I've worked out with the following types of weightlifters:

- Professional Bodybuilders
- NFL Linemen
- Professional, College and HS Strength and Conditioning Coaches
- Successful Competitive Powerlifters

I've spoken with members of each of these groups about appropriate diet for serious weightlifting. The first thing that every single one of them mentioned was high protein consumption. As I mentioned previously, the standard is 1-2 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight daily.

(...snip)

Obviously, you have some information provided to you by professionals who lift a lot of weights with the intention of building a lot of lean mass. This certainly gives you some room to talk and some reason for me to listen. Having said that, I still must disagree with the main-stream thoughts on protein intake. I don't want to appear to be jumping in when you already have a few people suggesting that the information provided to these athletes may be misleading but it seems highly probable that such is the case. The need for protein has been over-stated for decades but it would seem that the trend has finally been put to the test and what is being discovered contrasts sharply with what most of us were told and what most coaches, trainers and athletes have been told.

Even a look at Arnold Swarzenegger's book, Arnold's Body Building for Men shows Arnold's personal recommendation to be, "about one gram of protein for every two pounds of body weight."

Protein has simply been over-sold to the public for so long that attempts to correct the misleading information which has proliferated for so long is about as easy as convincing a man to change his religion. If these athletes would like to put the newer theories to the test, they should gradually reduce their protein intake and have their urine checked. When they stop excreting the excess protein and the by-products in their urine, they've probably reached a balance of protein intake to protein use. Not being a doctor, this is more or less a guess based on the knowledge that the body will expel most of the protein not used within a few hours of digestion.

BiochemGuy · #19 08-15.-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by ric_stern/RST

it's been repeatedly shown that this isn't the case, and that these recommendations seriously overshoot the upper limit of protein intake. It's a weightlifting myth

further, it has been shown that the greatest need for protein is actually for extreme endurance events such as the Tour de France, and these needs can be met by a normal mixed diet.

ric

Weightlifting myth? Studies done by Peter Lemon and Mark Tarnopolsky have shown the protein needs for bodybuilders to be 1.8g/kg of bodyweight. Or about .8 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight. Most bodybuilders just round that up to 1 gram of protein per pound.

ric_stern/RST · #20 08-15.-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by BiochemGuy

Weightlifting myth? Studies done by Peter Lemon and Mark Tarnopolsky have shown the protein needs for bodybuilders to be 1.8g/kg of bodyweight. Or about .8 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight. Most bodybuilders just round that up to 1 gram of protein per pound.

not sure, maybe you have reading issues ;-) the poster i was responding to was suggesting 2 grams per pound of body weight.

and, all the evidence shows that the Tour de France requires the highest protein intake at ~2 g/kg body mass.

nonetheless, 2g/kg body mass can be met by a normal diet without supplementation

ric

Beastt · #21 08-15.-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by BiochemGuy

Weightlifting myth? Studies done by Peter Lemon and Mark Tarnopolsky have shown the protein needs for bodybuilders to be 1.8g/kg of bodyweight. Or about .8 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight. Most bodybuilders just round that up to 1 gram of protein per pound.

Arnold Schwarzenegger rounds it down to .5 grams per pound of body weight. Doesn't seem to have substantially limited his ability to build bulk. Protein needs should be looked at realistically. If you were a primative human with only the wilderness around you to feed yourself with, how much protein would you expect to consume daily? Man is not a good hunter by nature so most of your protein would have to come from plant sources. The amount of protein people seem to feel they need isn't realistic once you take man out of his modern world and place him back into the survival struggle of nature. Yet that is the setting from which man sprang. Certainly a body builder is placing different nutritional needs on himself but perhaps the difference isn't as broad as we've been lead to believe.

BiochemGuy · #22 08-16.-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by ric_stern/RST

not sure, maybe you have reading issues ;-) the poster i was responding to was suggesting 2 grams per pound of body weight.

and, all the evidence shows that the Tour de France requires the highest protein intake at ~2 g/kg body mass.

nonetheless, 2g/kg body mass can be met by a normal diet without supplementation

ric

No "reading issues" here. dpvan wrote, "1-2 grams per pound" there is clearly research showing that about one gram per pound is needed and I guess you agree with that. If it was the 2 grams per pound thing you were against then you should have been more clear on that. 1 gram per pound should cover the protein needs of most weightlifters and athletes, but many weightlifters and athletes use steroids which increase the rate of protein synthesis and they probably require more protein. Though, we will probably never know since there arn't any studies on the protein needs of steroid users. I wouldn't be surprised if the protein needs of a weightlifter using anabolic steroids was 2 or more grams per pound.

As far as protein supplements go, ofcourse we don't need them and can get plenty of protein from food. Though protein supplements make it easier for alot of people to be able to get their desired protein intake. Whey protein supplements have other benefits beyond just increasing your protein intake. Whey protein has very powerful anti-cancer and antioxidant effects due to its ability to increase GSH. GSH is probably the most powerful antioxidant in the human body. More and more studies are showing whey's ability to help fight and prevent cancer.

Trekker2017 · #23 08-16.-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike_Rides_Red

I normally eat tons of carbs before a ride and after i load up on protein. Is this the right way of doing it? When should you load up on protein?

Head over to www.drsquat.com. Yes, they sell all kinds of health products over there, but the owner of the website (a former weight lifting champion) has lots of brochures on the proper way to train and what and when to eat especially for people in competition. (He was an advisor to the WWE and the US Hockey team that won the gold medal back in the '80s and helps train numerous other athletes.)

closesupport · #24 08-28.-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trekker2017

Head over to www.drsquat.com. Yes, they sell all kinds of health products over there, but the owner of the website (a former weight lifting champion) has lots of brochures on the proper way to train and what and when to eat especially for people in competition. (He was an advisor to the WWE and the US Hockey team that won the gold medal back in the '80s and helps train numerous other athletes.)

protein is required mainly within the first 2 hours of completing any form of exercise, along with carbs and fat to repair any damage to cells that need to be repaired some 12-15% of your total calorie intake should come from protein, or 1-2g per kg of bodyweight depending upon the type of exercise you have completed 1-1.4 for moderat exercise 1.4 - 1.7 even 2g\per kg body weight per day for strenuous power exercises (weights or sprints and the like).

closesupport · #25 08-31.-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpvan

Ric - With due respect, you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to weightlifting and protein consumption.

I am a serious weightlifter and have been for several years. During that time, I've worked out with the following types of weightlifters:

- Professional Bodybuilders
- NFL Linemen
- Professional, College and HS Strength and Conditioning Coaches
- Successful Competitive Powerlifters

I've spoken with members of each of these groups about appropriate diet for serious weightlifting. The first thing that every single one of them mentioned was a high level of protein consumption. As I mentioned previously, the standard is 1-2 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight daily.

Now, I'm sure that you know more than people who lift weights for a living, but when dozens of the most muscular and strongest guys I've ever talk with say that protein consumption is the answer, I'm going to listen to them.

As I recall from previous posts, you're big into debunking "myths". I seem to recall that you contend that Lance Armstrong and Chris Carmichael are promoting a myth when they say that cyclists can benefit from weightlifting. Now you're saying that every professional bodybuilder on the planet is promoting a myth when he says you need to eat a lot of protein in order to build muscle.

(Aerobic exercise)1.2g-1.4g protein per kilo body weight .
(anerobic exercise) or weight lifter 1.4-1.7g per kilo body weight of protein per day actually since working without the oxygen supply kills of muscle cells faster.....

closesupport · #26 08-31.-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by ric_stern/RST

not sure, maybe you have reading issues ;-) the poster i was responding to was suggesting 2 grams per pound of body weight.

and, all the evidence shows that the Tour de France requires the highest protein intake at ~2 g/kg body mass.

nonetheless, 2g/kg body mass can be met by a normal diet without supplementation

ric

that would be far to much and more wasted than used.

ed073 · #27 09-01.-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by closesupport

that would be far to much and more wasted than used.

Incorrect.

Jhikers · #28 09-01.-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpvan

Ric - With due respect, you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to weightlifting and protein consumption.

I couldn't agree more...

ric_stern/RST · #29 09-01.-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jhikers

I couldn't agree more...

like i said provide some solid evidence, and i'll be willing to look at it, but all you want to do is invent fantasy rubbish that you can't provide any evidence based data for. ok?

ric

Beastt · #30 09-01.-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by ed073

Incorrect.

Based on what information?