Post ride glycogen replacement and weight loss… - Page 2

what are you talking about?

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http://www.cyclecoach.com

For anyone who exercises on a regular basis and is looking to loose some weight, your best overall eating strategy is to eat most of your calories as close to and during your exercise as possible. This means fueling up before riding, eating while riding and immediately after riding. Then, as you asked, you want to cut back on the calories you take in during the rest of your day. Keep in mind that you want to manage a ~500Kcal/day deficit; that's calories used while exercising plus what you take out of your food. Don't try to do too much, or your weight loss will back fire into too much muscle loss.
When you don't provide your body with energy (carbs) while you exercise, your body will make it, via catabolizing protein..your muscles. And this..is bad.

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Smartty

Yes, I would do more. Not because muscle glycogen would be down near depletion levels, but rather because cortisol levels will be up. You will expend muscle gylcogen during exercise, but additionally your hormonal profile will turn negative, with the body becoming catabolic. And that means LBM will be in the process of being converted to glucose thru a process called gluconeogenesis. Not something you want to happen. Thus the best thing to do right after any major exercise, especially a hard resistance-type ride -is to induce an insulin spike, and the best way to do this is thru a dose of liquid simple carbs. This stops the production of cortisol in its tracks. In addition, you'll want to add some protein in with the simple carbs, as the insulin will rapidly carry the protein into the muscle tissue... where you need it the most.

This will not ruin your weight-loss prospects. In fact, this is something I did even during rigorous dieting in preparation for bodybuilding competition. They key to bodyfat loss is to maintain a caloric deficit in the area of 25%, and to continue to adjust calorie levels as the weight comes off. There are a myriad of dieting techniques where you can manipulate macronutrients differently, but the common thread is the caloric deficit.

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Steve Holt
The Vegetarian Bodybuilder
www.vegetarianbodybuilder.com

Who is talking exclusively about muscle glycogen? The partial depletion of liver glycogen is also extremely important. Note also that an endurance effort lasting around 3 hours can easily exhaust 50% of muscle glycogen. Some bike riders ride for up to 6 hours (I'm not saying they get to the point where they have 0% muscle glycogen - that's completely impossible). I appreciate you might have good knowledge of bodybuilding, but if you don't think you can significantly deplete glycogen on a bike or through other endurance exercise, you are obviously a pretty ****ty bike rider and not much for reading eaither.

Ironic then that cortico-steroids are one of the most abused performance enhancing drugs in the amateur ranks of cycling. Gluconeogenesis provides a performance boost in the short term and is definitely something some people want to happen - raised cortisol levels are not great for many reasons, but the reason you eat after a ride is to replace CHO, not to manipulate hormones.

Why does it have to be liquid? What you're looking for here is 1-1.5g glycaemic CHO/kg body weight plus a small amount of protein. If someone wants to make me some pasta, bring it on. Solid food is fine.

You are correct about the insulin spike - insulin is helpful largely because it increases muscle glycogen uptake.

The primary reason it is recommended to eat a small amount of protein post-endurance exercise is that it has been shown to increase muscle glycogen stores when eaten with CHO. Which you don't seem to think is important. Go figure.

No doubt you were a great bodybuilder - perhaps after you ride a bike for a while you'll have something to contribute here too.

Perhaps you would be interested in understanding endurance exercise before you start throwing barbed comments at on of the most helpful, considered and educated contributors on this forum?

I mean sure, being a vegetarian bodybuilder is a great qualification for discussing endurance exercise, but I think a degree in exercise science holds more weight with me...

Thanks :-)

not that i think it really matters to your point but it's sports science (as I focussed my studies on elite performance, rather than exercise).

cheers
ric

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http://www.cyclecoach.com

No worries!

Sincerest apologies...

A buddy of mine was involved in some trials at CU last summer...varying amounts of time (30, 60, 45m) on the ergometer at varying levels of VO2max (up to 85%). At one point, he got off the bike and tested at ~62 mmol/kg. Now he's a well trained Cat 2.

So I'm guessing you could take an avg century rider, put him on a bike for 4hrs, and get his levels well below 80 mmol/kg, especially if he's not feeding himself.

Maybe you could provide some cites for your assertions.

Clay T

Well I'm glad to see I woke eveybody up on this board. I think the issue here is the use of the word "depletion". It connotes an empty tank. Like you said, no one goes to zero, but for our purposes it means something down in the area of 40 mmol/kg. Your example confirms that you don't get down to that level of full depletion from typical riding.

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Steve Holt
The Vegetarian Bodybuilder
www.vegetarianbodybuilder.com

Really? Why do you suppose that is?
We're talking about depletion, not 50% depletion.


Nice to meet you too.

And why do you suppose you'd want to replace CHO after a ride?

Pasta is low GI and will not produce the same insulin reaction. You want liquid dextrose because of the rapid absorption and insulin spike. You want to switch from a catabolic to an anabolic state. But then we're talking about manipulating hormones again.

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Steve Holt
The Vegetarian Bodybuilder
www.vegetarianbodybuilder.com

I never said that. And you have yet to back your numbers with anything resembling primary literature.

LOL...45m on an ergometer is not typical riding for anyone on this board. In fact, it's extremely light. For the guy who actually did the test, it's a joke.

I was trying to illustrate that a drop from 80mmol/kg isn't as drastic as you seemed to insinuate.

You said no one goes to zero. I said that for our purposes empty means at or below 40 mmol/kg. What numbers need backing up? Is this what you are disputing?

Jeez doesn't anyone remember what they're arguing about?

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Steve Holt
The Vegetarian Bodybuilder
www.vegetarianbodybuilder.com

Thought it was a discussion.

Look, this is semantics, but if the worlds oil reserves were 50% of what they now were, I would say they are significantly depleted. With muscle glycogen at 50% of original levels endurance exercise capacity is significantly hampered. Certainly seems like a level that could reasonably be labelled depletion. We could always look at what is commonly described as depletion in endurance exercise?

And why do I suppose that the partial depletion of muscle and liver glycogen is important? Because it limits exercise capacity.

OK. Muscle and liver glycogen are what i primarily want replace. And if you don't know why, go read a textbook instead of swannning about like an expert. For basic recommendations about nutrition during endurance exercise try the AIS website. And quit bothering us with claptrap.

Possibly - GI of pasta changes significantly just based on its shape, among other things. I normally have some sports drink first - should have mentioned that maybe.

Many other foods have this characteristic and also contain important micronutrients. Why so restrictive? At a basic level, why not glucose?

Yes you are. Why?

I agree with you that maximising insulin response is a good idea - this is because insulin mediates muscle and liver glycogen uptake. Funnily enough, glycogen availability has a role in preventing catabolism, especially post-exercise. But you don't think CHO replacement is important...

Someone said this is supposed to be a discussion. This is not a discussion. It is an argument prolonged by people like yourself because they get in deeper than their knowledge level. Liver glycogen has nothing to do with exercise capacity - its function is to provide the brain with its short term glucose requirements.

Dextrose IS glucose. Dude, why don't you just ask questions instead of trying to portray yourself as knowing more than you do? This is the reason you don't learn anything.

This is a waste of time. Signing off.
No hard feelings.
Have fun.

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Steve Holt
The Vegetarian Bodybuilder
www.vegetarianbodybuilder.com