Sodium Phosphate - Page 2

gooders · #16 08-10.-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shibumi

In his book 'The Cyclist's Training Bible', Joe Friel quotes a study that suggests that sodium phosphate loading can improve a TT performance by up to 8%.

Does anyone have experience of this supplement? What is it, where can you get it, does it work, is it legal for racing, can it have side-effects, etc?

You get buy Tekno Fuel from Joe Beer's website.....£20 for 8 loads.
http://www.jbst.com/products2.html#sodphos

when you buy it a fact sheet is provided on loading.

from what I've read you can only use 3-4 times per year due to the potenial adverse affect calcium depletion caused by sodium phosphate. Might be beneficial to take a low dose mineral supplement during loading.

Also I've found it did give me the trots the first time I used it. Since I now load over two weeks. The first week slowly introduce the phosphate - 1g x 1, then a days break, then 1g x 2, then a days break....etc until you are 1g x 4. Then load for 4 days.....some can tolerate it better than others though.

hope this helps.

ric_stern/RST · #17 08-10.-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by gooders

You get buy Tekno Fuel from Joe Beer's website.....£20 for 8 loads.
http://www.jbst.com/products2.html#sodphos

when you buy it a fact sheet is provided on loading.

from what I've read you can only use 3-4 times per year due to the potenial adverse affect calcium depletion caused by sodium phosphate. Might be beneficial to take a low dose mineral supplement during loading.

Also I've found it did give me the trots the first time I used it. Since I now load over two weeks. The first week slowly introduce the phosphate - 1g x 1, then a days break, then 1g x 2, then a days break....etc until you are 1g x 4. Then load for 4 days.....some can tolerate it better than others though.

hope this helps.

two things: The Tekno stuff isn't likely to work as it's dibasic sodium phosphate and there's no evidence that this works, and some evidence that it's detrimental to performance, i.e., it may cause fatigue at a cellular level.

2) the loading protocol you suggest isn't likely to work with any phosphate, using a long, low dose protocol will most likely just cause increased urinary excretion of the phosphate.

ric

gooders · #18 08-10.-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by ric_stern/RST

two things: The Tekno stuff isn't likely to work as it's dibasic sodium phosphate and there's no evidence that this works, and some evidence that it's detrimental to performance, i.e., it may cause fatigue at a cellular level.

2) the loading protocol you suggest isn't likely to work with any phosphate, using a long, low dose protocol will most likely just cause increased urinary excretion of the phosphate.

ric

Ric,

1) Just going on recomendations and JB seems to know his stuff....but if dibasic doesn't work whats the exact type that does work?

2) maybe I wasn't clear about the loading protocal I adopted. Low dose for 1 week for my gut to adapt, then 4 days with 1g four times per day for the actual loading......or do you recomend a higher dose for loading.

I've read positive results about using a one off Sodium Citrate loading:

Oopik et al. (2003) a 5km run 30" faster (2.5%) in runners completing the task in 19-mins.

Potteiger et al. (1996) a 30km time trial was 103" faster (2.89%) in cyclists completing it in approx 59mins.

McNaughton (1990) a 1-minute sprint had Peak power up 215w (20%) an total work up 8.5KJ (23%).

Have you experience using this as an ergogenic aid and can it be combined with Sodium Phosphate.....or not really worth considering.

thanks

ric_stern/RST · #19 08-10.-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by gooders

Ric,

1) Just going on recomendations and JB seems to know his stuff....but if dibasic doesn't work whats the exact type that does work?

JB hasn't done any research on phosphate loading. on the hand, my cohorts and i have published and in press research on it.

if you read the literature surrounding phosphate loading, as well as it being equivocal, it's possible to ascertain that only one type of phosphate is ergogenic. Tribasic sodium phosphate

Quote:

2) maybe I wasn't clear about the loading protocal I adopted. Low dose for 1 week for my gut to adapt, then 4 days with 1g four times per day for the actual loading......or do you recomend a higher dose for loading.

it's been hypothesised that longer term exposure to phosphate will just cause it to be excreted, some research suggests that this will happen quite rapidly (~ 7 days)

we loaded 1 g, four times/day for six days

Quote:

I've read positive results about using a one off Sodium Citrate loading:

Oopik et al. (2003) a 5km run 30" faster (2.5%) in runners completing the task in 19-mins.

Potteiger et al. (1996) a 30km time trial was 103" faster (2.89%) in cyclists completing it in approx 59mins.

McNaughton (1990) a 1-minute sprint had Peak power up 215w (20%) an total work up 8.5KJ (23%).

Have you experience using this as an ergogenic aid and can it be combined with Sodium Phosphate.....or not really worth considering.

thanks

i have no experience with citrate loading

ric

gooders · #20 08-10.-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by ric_stern/RST

JB hasn't done any research on phosphate loading. on the hand, my cohorts and i have published and in press research on it.

if you read the literature surrounding phosphate loading, as well as it being equivocal, it's possible to ascertain that only one type of phosphate is ergogenic. Tribasic sodium phosphate

it's been hypothesised that longer term exposure to phosphate will just cause it to be excreted, some research suggests that this will happen quite rapidly (~ 7 days)

we loaded 1 g, four times/day for six days

i have no experience with citrate loading

ric

Ric,

I've just ordered 'Race Day Boost' from E-Caps which contains triabasic sodium phosphate. I'm planning a few more 10m TTs this summer. Once I've got my powertap up and running I'll do a couple of tests with and without sodium phosphate and let you know how I go.

thanks for the advice.

zaskar · #21 08-10.-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by ric_stern/RST

there's a few errors in the above text,

1) phosphate loading has been shown to increase power output by 8% (in some studies, e.g., ours) but not decrease time by 8%

3) there's no evidence whatsoever that sodium phosphate loading improves short term power

ric

Thank's for your input Ric but not sure i understand 1&3. so does it improve long term power? efforts 60min plus ? will it be no good for 40 min all out effort?

ric_stern/RST · #22 08-11.-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by zaskar

Thank's for your input Ric but not sure i understand 1&3. so does it improve long term power? efforts 60min plus ? will it be no good for 40 min all out effort?

phosphate loading appears to increase power output by 8%. Under given conditions that won't have an 8% effect on time/velocity, as velocity is an almost cubic relationship to power (^~2.7). in other words in a hypothethical e.g., current power is 300 W and velocity is 43.2 km/hr, an 8% increase in power will take you to 324 W, while velocity will increase to 44.1 km/hr, an increase of ~ 2%.

the short term power that it doesn't effect are e.g., 30-sec all-out sprints, or repeated sprints.

no one has tested anything longer than ~ 1-hr, so we can't say for sure. however, i would imagine that it will play some role in longer events where you can race hard (e.g., 50mile TT), and may play a part in even longer events (e.g., 100mile TT) if you're of an ability level where you can race it properly (unlike e.g., me, who may be more concerned about getting around and possibly blowing up).

ric

zaskar · #23 08-11.-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by ric_stern/RST

phosphate loading appears to increase power output by 8%. Under given conditions that won't have an 8% effect on time/velocity, as velocity is an almost cubic relationship to power (^~2.7). in other words in a hypothethical e.g., current power is 300 W and velocity is 43.2 km/hr, an 8% increase in power will take you to 324 W, while velocity will increase to 44.1 km/hr, an increase of ~ 2%.

the short term power that it doesn't effect are e.g., 30-sec all-out sprints, or repeated sprints.

no one has tested anything longer than ~ 1-hr, so we can't say for sure. however, i would imagine that it will play some role in longer events where you can race hard (e.g., 50mile TT), and may play a part in even longer events (e.g., 100mile TT) if you're of an ability level where you can race it properly (unlike e.g., me, who may be more concerned about getting around and possibly blowing up).

ric

Thank's for explaining that Ric!

ric_stern/RST · #24 08-11.-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by zaskar

Thank's for explaining that Ric!

no sweat! glad to help

ric

dvince · #25 01-01.-2005

I would like to know when (how many days before competion and when during the day- before after meal etc.), how much (per body weight), how often and how to take sodium phosphate+ sodium bicarbonate before TT competion.
How long should be the time before two loadings (is the effect reduced if taken too frequently)?
Any other side effects except gastrointestinal problems?

Thank you for your help.

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