Knee pain revisited

HellonWheels · #1 08-25.-2003

Although I'd been using my recumbent stationary bike 6x/wk for the last 3 years, only in the last few monthsd have I returned to regular cycling. That was when my probs began.

Previously (many yrs ago), I'd been used only to riding on flat surfaces (city streets.) Now, in the burbs, I had to get used to hills. That was when my knee probs began. I researched it online extensively, and it seems I had/have a combo of ilio-tibial band syndrome coupled with chondromalacia/patella problems.

I was at a loss as to how to treat it (not riding anymore was out of the question)...for the last few wks off and on I'd beencoping with knees that made cricking noises, swelled up, hurt right above the kneecap, felt like it was giving out or about to... etc

Then, one of the sports med articles I read said that 80% of cyclists with this prob usually rode with their knees swinging outward. The article said to ride with toes in. I couldnt figure out what they meant...until I happened to see a pic of Lance Armstrong riding that way.

I tried it this morning, and I had NO knee pain! I STILL don't! And I did over an hour too at intense speed (intense for me, anyway.)

wbmorrison · #2 08-27.-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by HellonWheels
Although I'd been using my recumbent stationary bike 6x/wk for the last 3 years, only in the last few monthsd have I returned to regular cycling. That was when my probs began.

Previously (many yrs ago), I'd been used only to riding on flat surfaces (city streets.) Now, in the burbs, I had to get used to hills. That was when my knee probs began. I researched it online extensively, and it seems I had/have a combo of ilio-tibial band syndrome coupled with chondromalacia/patella problems.

I was at a loss as to how to treat it (not riding anymore was out of the question)...for the last few wks off and on I'd beencoping with knees that made cricking noises, swelled up, hurt right above the kneecap, felt like it was giving out or about to... etc

Then, one of the sports med articles I read said that 80% of cyclists with this prob usually rode with their knees swinging outward. The article said to ride with toes in. I couldnt figure out what they meant...until I happened to see a pic of Lance Armstrong riding that way.

I tried it this morning, and I had NO knee pain! I STILL don't! And I did over an hour too at intense speed (intense for me, anyway.)

Funny you should mention this. Just today, while riding, I noticed that my legs (knees) sort of went in a circular motion when going up and down through the stroke. Not piston like, directly up and down. I wondered if that might be contributing. Hmmm...in addition to Advil, you've given me something else to try. Thanks! (PS: I wonder if the amount of 'float' in clipless pedals could also contribute. I'm sure not having enough puts more burden on knees and ankles...but is it possible to have too much float?

smax · #3 08-28.-2003

That is pretty interesting about riding with toes in. I've been mountain biking for about 7 years - racing except the last 3 years.

I have TIME ATAC pedals on the Mountain bike, which have a "spring to center" function (for lack of better term) that basically keeps my foot at a specific angle (example: toe in).

I bought a road bike a month ago and went with Speedplay pedals which do not have the "spring to center" thingy - and have been noticing a lot more knee pain... So in paying attention while riding

I notice that my pedal stroke on the road bike is more erratic where the foot angle is concerned... and I noticed that if I consciously try to do the "toe in" thing - then the knee pain stops.

BTW - I had surgery on my left knee last November and it is great - the problems now are with my right knee.

HellonWheels · #4 08-28.-2003

[QUOTE]Originally posted by smax
That is pretty interesting about riding with toes in. I've been mountain biking for about 7 years - racing except the last 3 years.

I have TIME ATAC pedals on the Mountain bike, which have a "spring to center" function (for lack of better term) that basically keeps my foot at a specific angle (example: toe in).

I bought a road bike a month ago and went with Speedplay pedals which do not have the "spring to center" thingy - and have been noticing a lot more knee pain... So in paying attention while riding

I notice that my pedal stroke on the road bike is more erratic where the foot angle is concerned... and I noticed that if I consciously try to do the "toe in" thing - then the knee pain stops.

>>>>>

http://www.roadcycling.com/training/kneepain.shtml

Above is one website I found about curing knee pain...I can't find the specific one that said to consciously ride with toes in and knees closer together...I printed it out and have it upstairs...I'll post it later on.

But this article (link above) mentions the cleats and how a change in position can affect the knees.

I'm just so glad to be knee-pain free now! :-)

jawnn · #5 11-03.-2004

Has any one tryed using the hase pedal pendulums to relieve knee pain?

they swing in an eliptical cicle and reduce knee bend. excellent for recumbents????

jcwitte · #6 11-03.-2004

I had terrible pain in my right knee whenever I would finish riding. It was fine while riding, but as soon as I got off the bike, look out. I could barely walk because of it. My right leg is kind of twisted at the knee so that my right foot naturally pionts outward. In order for MY knee to move in it's natural motion, I have to point my right toes outward. I just bought a product online called knee savers that seem to do the trick so far. Maybe not what your problem is, but I have ridden three times since buying the knee saver for my right pedal and haven't had any problems since (5, 10, and 10 miles). It's a little extension that you put between the crank and the pedal to push the pedal away from the bike so that you can let your foot and knee ride in their natural position. Here's the link for anyone interested. I'll post again about it if for some reason my knee pain comes back, but so far so good. http://www.bikescor.com/product/knee.htm

jawnn · #7 11-05.-2004

the place I saw the pendulums is the hostel shoppe cataloge, very expensive, but I intend to make my own. they extend the pedals also but also shorten the knee bend.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcwitte

I had terrible pain in my right knee whenever I would finish riding. It was fine while riding, but as soon as I got off the bike, look out. I could barely walk because of it. My right leg is kind of twisted at the knee so that my right foot naturally pionts outward. In order for MY knee to move in it's natural motion, I have to point my right toes outward. I just bought a product online called knee savers that seem to do the trick so far. Maybe not what your problem is, but I have ridden three times since buying the knee saver for my right pedal and haven't had any problems since (5, 10, and 10 miles). It's a little extension that you put between the crank and the pedal to push the pedal away from the bike so that you can let your foot and knee ride in their natural position. Here's the link for anyone interested. I'll post again about it if for some reason my knee pain comes back, but so far so good. http://www.bikescor.com/product/knee.htm

wiredued · #8 11-18.-2004

For me I didn't change the direction of my toes I just took about 250mg of calcium citrate per day and it seemed to work I also noticed less dental problems its a win win situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HellonWheels

Although I'd been using my recumbent stationary bike 6x/wk for the last 3 years, only in the last few monthsd have I returned to regular cycling. That was when my probs began.

Previously (many yrs ago), I'd been used only to riding on flat surfaces (city streets.) Now, in the burbs, I had to get used to hills. That was when my knee probs began. I researched it online extensively, and it seems I had/have a combo of ilio-tibial band syndrome coupled with chondromalacia/patella problems.

I was at a loss as to how to treat it (not riding anymore was out of the question)...for the last few wks off and on I'd beencoping with knees that made cricking noises, swelled up, hurt right above the kneecap, felt like it was giving out or about to... etc

Then, one of the sports med articles I read said that 80% of cyclists with this prob usually rode with their knees swinging outward. The article said to ride with toes in. I couldnt figure out what they meant...until I happened to see a pic of Lance Armstrong riding that way.

I tried it this morning, and I had NO knee pain! I STILL don't! And I did over an hour too at intense speed (intense for me, anyway.)

jagrazor · #9 11-26.-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiredued

For me I didn't change the direction of my toes I just took about 250mg of calcium citrate per day and it seemed to work I also noticed less dental problems its a win win situation.

What does Calcium citrate do?

How does one decide they need/ don't need an extension on there pedal?

jawnn · #10 02-28.-2005

SHORT CRANKS. I installed ‘Tandem East’s’ crank arm shorteners, (hostelshoppe.com) with holes that effectively shorten 170mm cranks to 146, 129,and 112mm. The second setting creates a deficiency in the ‘swipe threw pull back’ factor. I could have saved a lot of money by drilling and tapping the cranks at 150mm. 170mm cranks will be 151,134, 117 & 100mm.
I had some pain relief because my knees are not bent as much as when pushing threw the dead zone that pushes up the kneecaps, but still hurt my self by pushing too hard. It’s a bit harder to climb hills with because there is less leverage and uses slightly different muscle sets. It’s like cranking in a higher gear. so you have to use lower gears to climb hills.

I am sure that Biopace eliptical chain rings can help also, as they help get your feet threw the dead zones. but I hear that they should be turned a quarter revolution.

unfortunatly racers controll the market and they didnt like them for going fast. Does any one know where I can buy new ones?

Postie · #11 03-05.-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by HellonWheels

Then, one of the sports med articles I read said that 80% of cyclists with this prob usually rode with their knees swinging outward. The article said to ride with toes in. I couldnt figure out what they meant...until I happened to see a pic of Lance Armstrong riding that way.

I tried it this morning, and I had NO knee pain! I STILL don't! And I did over an hour too at intense speed (intense for me, anyway.)

I can understand how knees swinging outward can relate to problems. But what I'm surprised at are the testimonies of the "toes in" with knee pain relief that people are telling.

The correct cleat position is your natural foot position. In your natural foot position you shouldn't have knees swinging outward.

The way you can tell your natural foot position is by sitting on a table with the edge close to the back of your knees. Let your feet dangle a few inches apart. Then get a friend to take a picture of your feet's positions (the picture is because, if you look down, some people tend to will their feet into a "perceived" natural position rather then the real one). Most people have their natural position toes out. In those cases forcing the feet "toes in" would be very counter productive.

jawnn · #12 03-07.-2005

the knee cap get pushed up in the top of the crank circle, rotate slowly and you can feel it.

the only way to stop this is by not pushing hard at that point. elliptical chain rings, short cranks and lower gears help but are not magic. and if you have lots of money you could use a Rotor crank, see the Hosstle shoppe. I finnaly decided that pedal pendulums won't work.

Catrike #116 · #13 03-07.-2005

More than you want to know?

There have been many discussions on various message boards regarding knee pain. Thought I would provide a summary of what I found and what worked for me.

Being a member of the human race, a solution to all is difficult (e.g. one size does not fit all).

A little about me. I am 54 years old and own a recumbent trike, a Catrike Road.

I experienced knee pain with my DF, but is more profound with my new Catrike this year.

I spent exorbitant monies on a SRAM 81 speed and rotor cranks on my Catrike. Knee pain is still there, but much less.

Just bought knee savers for $46.00 and pain is again less. There are three sizes. I bought the 30mm (biggest size) only cause I am 6'4" tall and everything should be bigger to fit? They essentially move your foot/leg further away from the pedal. Details are at www.kneesaver.net/

Another less expensive solution is increasing your RPMs, cadence, higher number of revolutions. This is often called spinning (e.g. avoid single speeding) at a higher rate or from a "masher" to more of a spinner. The easier exertion on the knee, the better. I use this process.

Those who ride with shoes with cleats profess if cleats are all the way to back of shoe, then knee pain is less. I did this also.

Buy good shoes and pedals. Seek medical advice if no improvements.

Another inexpensive way is have a professional fit you to your bike. And, stretching prior to and after riding is an excellent way of reducing and preventing knee pain. Stretch calves, quads and hamstrings and flex and rotate your knees before you get on your bike.... every time. Leg weight training; leg presses, extensions and hamstring work on the circuit machines can be very tough on knees. Plenty of stretching and some core exercise (without weights) should help the glutes and lower back, but you have to go slow and not overdo these either.

Doctor says is attributed to growth and told me to take some supplements that lubricate the joints and supposedly help them heal. The supplement was chondroitin+glucosamine with hyaluronic acid.

There are probably many ideas to solve knee pain as there are riders.

Recommend you start with the least expensive and move up from there.

More at this link….http://www.roadcycling.com/training/kneepain.shtml

Catrike Road #116

"Cats just don't feel safe on a moving bicycle, no matter how much duct tape you use"--Author unknown

jagrazor · #14 03-10.-2005

I have learned a lot since I last posted also, if your knees hurt, don't take too much vitamin C, in fact stop taking any supplementation of it right away. Vitamin C (absorbic acid) hurts the bodies ability to absorb magnesium and B vitamins, which help your body produce HA Hyvrolic acid*sp*

Which basically is key for lubricating your joints and keeing your tendons and ligaments working well. So too much vitamin C = bad for joints.

Don't go radical though and do the opposite because not enough Vitam C = free radicals = cancer

More or less.

So take a multivitamin and watch your diet. Also maybe get something like the product at www.conquerha.net But it probably isn't neccesary if your younger and you just eat right, although if your older you might want to consider it more. I am 19 and I think I might try it for a month.. idk

anyway good luck with your knees.. one day we will beat this crap.. just keep working and keep your eyes on the prize. Worrying and giving up can be the worst things for your body

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