Your comments are very much appreciated and often humorous. I got a bit of a smile reading about how "old school" I am. Perhaps you didn't notice that the information to which you're referring isn't the outcome of any kind of studies I've conducted. Then you post information from a study which utilized rats and compares the results to humans. That was the failing of the studies done on human protein requirements in the 1940s. Rats were used and nobody thought to ask themselves if rats were representative of humans when it came to metabolization of proteins and protein requirements. Certainly some comparisons can be drawn between any two mammals but rats are on the distant end of the scale from a human perspective. If you doubt that, take a look at the breast milk produced by the two different species. Five percent of calories in human breast milk are from protein whereas forty-nine percent of rat milk calories are protein. The difference is staggering. Rats were no doubt utilized because they're a convienient subject with short life spans. When I hear the term "new school" I don't think in terms of the 1940s.

I genuinely loved your comment regarding damage to kidney tissues, "And there is no proof of this whatsoever, ever in the history of humanity of this happening with healthy subjects." Of course the obvious part of that is once you're suffering from severe kidney deterioration, you can't be considered a "healthy subject" anymore. Aside from that fact, I'm sure your intent was to state that no subject not already afflicted with some other severe health disorder has ever been shown to have sustained damage to their kidneys as a result of excess dietary protein. One must wonder how you would come to know this. You have access to and are familiar with the medical records of every patient ever to have sustained decreased kidney function? I have my doubts.

I'm well aware that many studies have been done on the same 'protein' subject and have often had conflicting outcomes. That's what makes the topic of protein requirements and the pros and cons of excess protein consumption worth discussing.

I found the statements in your post on the study utilizing rats as subjects to determine pre-cardio nutrient intake very interesting as a few, if not the majority, are in direct opposition to many other findings. Of course this does nothing to suggest which findings are the most accurate in terms of human physiology, but it does highlight suspicions about the use of animals which clearly have different protein requirements and metabolic functions not equal to those in humans.

As an example, many comments were made regarding the use of protein for energy. In doing a fair amount of research on this topic I find a degree of opposition but it all falls within the range of 0% of energy from protein to 10% of energy from protein. The one constant is that forced burning of protein for energy is always considered to be a negative and said to occur only when stores of glycogen are completely utilized and carbohydrates and fats are depleted.

I'm sure as you scan through the various snippets below, you'll find a number of other statements which are in opposition to the findings of the posted information regarding the pre-cardio intake study utilizing rats. In fact, I'm sure you'll find times when many different sources are in agreement with each other yet in disagreement to the rat-based data. This in itself means little. As Samuel Clemons once stated, "When you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect."

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http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives...7864.Gb.r.html
Under certain circumstances (starvation, a reducing diet, illness), your body will use protein for energy, when the supply of the other two nutrients gets low or is not available.

We, in the US, probably get plenty of protein in our food. In fact, most of us eat about 2-3 times what our body actually needs.
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http://<br /> <a href="http://www.h...ldier.shtm</a>
In a pinch, protein is also a backup energy source, but don't rely on protein for energy. When you burn protein, it is because you are low on carbohydrates. If you are burning protein, you are actually burning valuable muscle tissue, which weakens your muscles.
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http://outreach.missouri.edu/extensi...pplements.html

There is no evidence that protein supplements enhance muscle development, strength, or endurance. Extra protein doesn’t help and may even hinder health and performance.

Consuming too much protein, whether from food or supplements, increases the body’s water requirement and may contribute to dehydration. This is because the kidneys need more water to eliminate the excessive nitrogen load imposed by a high protein intake.
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http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/fact/thr_r...ategory=Sports
If your body runs out of carbohydrate fuel during exercise, it will burn fat and protein for energy, causing your performance level to drop.

Your body cannot store extra protein, so it burns it for energy or converts it to fat.
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http://www.coastside.net/USERS/runne...s/protein.html
Being involved in exercise, besides ultra-endurance events, doesn't mean you should eat more protein. It means that you should eat more complex carbohydrates like cereals and grains in order to keep your body from breaking down protein for energy.

Eating excessive protein, like most Americans do, is bad for your kidneys, liver, bones, cardiovascular system, and promotes vitamin and mineral deficiencies. It causes dehydration and is linked to osteoporosis, hypertension, and some forms of cancer. Too much protein is a bad thing.

Proteins have nitrogen in them and their breakdown in the liver creates ammonia. Ammonia is toxic. It is a poison to every cell in your body, especially your brain cells. So you pee it out. This is partly the point in going pee, to save your body from ammonia. Excessive protein intake can also make your blood acidic. To resist this change your body forces water out of your blood and pulls calcium from your bones into it. Another problem with high protein intake is that it usually means certain foods, like brussel sprouts and other vegetables, are being displaced from the diet. This is a bummer because vegetables provide many important things like vitamins, minerals, and fiber.

Many fad diets use high protein foods to force you to lose weight, but you aren't losing body fat this way. You only lose water, muscle tissue, and important minerals from your body. If you are presently on a diet that has you eating a lot of chicken or other meat products and avoiding carbohydrates, please stop. It's bad for you.
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http://www.teenbodybuilding.com/quade3.htm

Over excessive protein intake has a harmful effect on both the kidney's and liver and makes the human body burn valuable protein for energy.
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http://ianrpubs.unl.edu/foods/nf73.htm

Carbohydrates, fats and protein all provide energy for the body. The primary functions of protein are growth, maintenance and repair of body tissue rather than as an energy source. Using protein for energy is inefficient, expensive, and may lead to liver and kidney problems in later life. Carbohydrates and fats should be the energy sources to fuel the human body in all types of activity.
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http://en.fitness.com/health_weight_loss/v957474328.php
Question:
"My trainer put me on a 40% Protein/50% carb/10% fat diet. I need the protein in order for my muscles to have enough for recovery. The problem is, I can't seem to get even close to 40% with out going over 10% fat."

Answer:
I'm newly back to this board after about a year away from it. As for protein, your trainer is WRONG! I am a certified nutrition specialist and an exercise leader. The only function protein has is to repair tissue - it does NOT provide energy, which is what your trainer says you need more of for your muscles. BALONEY! The way it works is like this: when you eat carbs, they are stored in the muscle as glycogen. When that runs out, then the body goes to fat for energy. It NEVER uses protein for energy because protein CANNOT provide energy.

...SO - any additional protein causes your kidneys to work harder to get rid of all that extra (i.e. unnecessary protein) and can cause kidney problems.
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http://www.alternative-healthzine.com/html/0101_1.html
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An important aspect of our eating plan is that protein is very difficult to digest compared to carbohydrates and fats. When present in significant quantities, protein not only slows down, but also blocks the digestion of carbohydrates and fats, leading to undigested food and obesity. Proper digestion is the key to being slim.

Our bodies are exquisitely designed to burn nutrients for fuel in a very specific way. Carbohydrates are the main fuel source. When they are depleted, the body chooses fats next, the one nutrient designed specifically for storage and reserve energy. When fats are depleted, protein, the body's main structural component, is used, but only when severe depletion of carbohydrates and fats occur, a state commonly known as starvation or ketosis. Because protein for energy is primarily used to build cellular structures - not to create energy - metabolizing protein for energy is an incredibly inefficient way for the body to produce fuel.

People who go on high-protein diets are, in fact, starving themselves, which is why they are so successful in losing weight in the short term. But it's downright dangerous for the long term.

When the body metabolizes fats and proteins in the absence of essential carbohydrates, toxic byproducts are produced. These by-products are known as ketones or ketone bodies. When these build up to a high enough level in the body, an abnormal state known as ketosis is created. Those on high-protein diets desire ketosis, although it is abnormal and unsafe. They can tell by the way they feel, in fact, that they are going into ketosis because they feel a "high," and when they feel this "high," they know their high-protein diets are effective. In actual fact, this feeling heralds the beginning of a state of starvation.

Physiologically, ketones behave very much like psychotropic drugs. At low levels, they create a sense of euphoria - the ketotic "high" well known to high-protein dieters. At high levels, they produce sleepiness and disorientation. At even higher levels, coma can result.

Diabetics who receive insufficient insulin can get into this state quite quickly. The coma seen in newly diagnosed diabetics is due to extreme ketosis, combined with the acidosis produced when the body goes too long without sufficient carbohydrates.

The difference between diabetics and high-protein dieters is that diabetics actually consume carbohydrates, but because they lack the insulin to drive glucose into the cells, they replicate starvation on a cellular level. The result is a break-down in fats and proteins producing ketosis, which can lead to the so-called diabetic coma.
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http://www.vanderbilt.edu/dining/ns_fueltoburn.php

What role do carbohydrate, fat and protein play in exercise?

- Carbohydrate:

Is the preferred source of energy during high intensity exercise, such as a step aerobics, spin class or weight lifting.
Provides the quickest energy for the body.
Is required to burn fat--without it, you can’t burn fat.

- Fat:

Becomes the preferred source of energy in light to moderate exercise after 20 minutes of activity, such as a brisk bike ride or walk.

- Protein:

The body uses protein after exercise for muscle repair and growth.
The body will use small amounts of protein for fuel during some endurance sports such as soccer and cross-country.
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http://horse.purinamills.com/bulleti...teinexcess.htm

The more protein eaten above the animal’s needs, the greater the blood flow through the kidney. Prolonged renal hyperperfusion from chronic excessive protein intake is known to decrease renal function in people and some species of animals.
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http://www.theeatingplan.com/diets/
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Atkins Diet, Zone Diet, Sugar Busters... you are probably quite familiar with some of these high protein diets. The theory behind these diets is that since the body converts excess carbohydrates into fat, you restrict carbohydrates and force the body to "burn" protein and body fat as fuel.

These have become so popular because it allows you to eat meat and milk products without abandon. Weight loss during the first 2 weeks on a low-carbohydrate, high-protein diet is impressive. The numbers on the scale seem to drop much faster on a low-carbohydrate diet than on a typical low-calorie diet (average of 7 pounds in 10 days).

However below are the problems with these diets that they won't ever tell you about...

Water weight loss. Carbohydrates provide the sugar (known as glucose) that our body first wants to use to fuel the activities of the body. These type of diets provide little glucose. This forces the body to use glucose reserves in the liver (known as Glycogen). Glycogen is made up of mostly water, and when depleted, water weight loss will be seen.

Muscle weight loss. When the body can not find glucose and glycogen to use for energy, it will start converting protein to glucose to use for energy. But it doesn't just use protein from foods for this energy, it will also use protein from muscles for energy, resulting in body muscle wasting, which also lowers your metabolism.

Calcium depletion. The breaking down of protein to glucose causes calcium depletion in the body, leading to Osteoporosis. There have been actual medical studies done to prove this. This is especially a problem for women.

Kidney disease. Uric acid levels are elevated during protein breakdown, causing excessive urination and long term kidney problems.

Other problems that occur with high protein, low carbohydrate diets are nausea, constipation, low blood pressure, bad breath, and fetal harm for pregnant women.
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http://www.eatprotein.com/answers5.htm
Does the body store excess protein as fat?

No, not easily or efficiently. Fat is a storage form of energy; the body rarely likes to use protein for energy. It mainly uses protein as raw building material for the production of millions of protein compounds needed to replace the wear and tear of daily living. It will, however, easily store excess fat and carbohydrates as fat-but only in the presence of an elevated level of insulin in the blood.

Can the body break down muscle mass and turn that protein into carbohydrate?

Yes, if it has to. The liver can, by reassembling certain amino acids, manufacture about 200 grams of glucose per day to meet the needs of the few tissues in the body that can burn only glucose for fuel-the red blood cells and certain cells in the eye, kidney, and brain.

In a state of starvation, the body will break down its own muscle mass to meet this need, but with an adequate amount of dietary protein, it will spare its muscle mass and make glucose from the dietary protein.

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Interesting, sometimes conflicting, but I find utilizing a great number of sources to be, in the long run, superior to limiting one's research to a single source, (though I do appreciate your suggestion of medline). A single source usually introduces one to a single line of thought.

"...keep doing it your way and I'll enjoy the view from up here!" Is this a religious reference?

Perhaps it's not about ego, it's about discussion and learning.

Like I said, great for you and who wants to listen as you continue the diatribe on high protein diets vs quickly absorbed protein during a workout vs carbs.

That's old school and please continue to do so and I hope EVERYBODY listens to it as it makes it so much easier to compete against you.

Of course the studies I cited are totally wrong and I just didn't have anything better to do and those who try the protein during hate and recover much worse and immediately switch back the next day.

Hmmm, isn't there a commercial drink which uses 4:1 carbs to pro DURING, but they don't know anything either.

Good luck to ya.

And it's not about ANYTHING but being able to ride back to back to back 4-5 hour days on the bike.

__________________
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Chemicalanarchy@hotmail.com

With some people it's not possible to discuss from a point of opposition without ego becoming the foremost concern. That's too bad since if you could curb the defensiveness you seem to have much to offer.

I've noticed that my quadriceps felt more solid than usual, especially after a high consumption of protein (I'm an almond, hazelnut, peanut, walnut, etc. eater!) and was concerned that I might've consumed too much protein. My muscles felt sluggish, solid, heavy and non-cooperative. Towards the end of the workout, or even the middle, I could tell they'd loosened up a bit. Could it be from something else? I'm not able to consume dairy, and I was happy to rule the lactic acid build-up out of the equation, but I wasn't sure if there could be any other reason for the 'problem.'

What kind of work out? most people do consume to much protien. im 140lbs i only need 70 grms a day. i dont think you would feel it in your mucsles though, i could be wrong.

I run/jog on an average of 3 times a week for about 1 mile in under 10 minutes.

I also do Yoga.

I am intensely aware of even minute changes in my body and have not really experienced this sensation before. I didn't know if the sensation came from my diet or from other reasons. I thought I'd start with the diet as it's usually the culprit in most situations.

I was hoping someone out there would have some sort of clue for me, but then again, it's a vague description for something that might be needing more 'in depth' research and not an 'off the cuff' response... but it doesn't hurt to try, right?

Yeah i went to the Doc and was told i had an abnormally high uric acid content in the blood due to excessive protein in the diet.... A trainer at the gym i went to also said he used protein powder only in bulk hits every few months for the same reason.....

I researched 'uric acid' and found a neat site that explains also why I feel a lot of pain sometimes, and especially lately (I have Rhumetoid Arthritis also, as well as Fibromyalsia... which I can't spell, obviously). http://www.labtestsonline.org/unders...acid/test.html
Pay attention to the last paragraph.

I don't think peanut butter and the like is a source of protein. It's a fat.

Amount Per 1 tablespoon Calories 94.88
Calories from Fat 73.48

Protein 4.03g

4 grams of protein is not a lot. 4 oz of Chicken breast is about 40 grams of protein.
IMO, your issue is not with eating too much protein.

What kinds of processed foods are you eating? I would think if you are eating commercial peanut butter and the like, maybe your sodium levels are causing the tightness in your legs. Also sugar, which in is commercial peanut butter is an inflammatory agent - too much of it can cause inflammation of joints and muscles in some.

Are you prone to edema or water retention?

I eat a lot of nuts, not necessarily peanut butter. Those nuts are purchased bulk from a bulk food store, and they're roasted and salted.

I also will often eat just the meat from the meal served (including red meat) and not much else. I eat lots of raw fruits and vegi's and don't consume much, if any, dairy. I have been accused of consuming a bit too much sugar, but I do try and substitute most sugary foods like cookies and candies with naturally sweet foods like dates and prunes.

I'm not really prone to water retention, only occaisionally. I'm sort of surprised sometimes that I'm not as I have a tendency to drink large amounts of water from time to time.