Torture

I firmly believe that western governments need to do whatever it takes to
extract information from terrorists/bombers that they are holding. There can
be no rights for people who are intent on destroying our civilization.
Selective torture techniques must be on the menu for these barbarians or we
are shirking our duty to protect our way of life. Really, if we knew that
torture applied to one individual could have prevented 9/11 with 3000 lives
lost and 1000 billion dollars down the drain can there be any argument?? The
next strike could mean 1 million lives lost.

"David" <forgotwhy@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:inPGe.67126$oJ.6044@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> I firmly believe that western governments need to do whatever it takes to
> extract information from terrorists/bombers that they are holding. There
can
> be no rights for people who are intent on destroying our civilization.
> Selective torture techniques must be on the menu for these barbarians or
we
> are shirking our duty to protect our way of life. Really, if we knew that
> torture applied to one individual could have prevented 9/11 with 3000
lives
> lost and 1000 billion dollars down the drain can there be any argument??
The
> next strike could mean 1 million lives lost.
>

Frinstance - if you held a man prisoner who you suspected had your missing
daughter somewhere and she was in danger - would you not apply any torture
techniques to extract information? Why would governments with infinitely
higher stakes act any differently?

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:16:28 GMT, "David" <forgotwhy@yahoo.com.au>
wrote:
>"David" <forgotwhy@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
>news:inPGe.67126$oJ.6044@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> I firmly believe that western governments need to do whatever it takes to
>> extract information from terrorists/bombers that they are holding.
SNIP
>Frinstance - if you held a man prisoner who you suspected had your missing
>daughter somewhere and she was in danger - would you not apply any torture
>techniques to extract information? Why would governments with infinitely
>higher stakes act any differently?

Are you trying to convince yourself?

But, yeah, if it was an option then I'd use torture and heaping
helpings of it at that if my family were involved or could be spared
suffering. Isn't this slippery slope stuff, though?

The world is one @#$%ed up place.

--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/

"Curt" <curt_james@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:v1ine15r45a76i0oj5ngqbf7fceflrfq59@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:16:28 GMT, "David" <forgotwhy@yahoo.com.au>
> wrote:
> >"David" <forgotwhy@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> >news:inPGe.67126$oJ.6044@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> >> I firmly believe that western governments need to do whatever it takes
to
> >> extract information from terrorists/bombers that they are holding.
> SNIP
> >Frinstance - if you held a man prisoner who you suspected had your
missing
> >daughter somewhere and she was in danger - would you not apply any
torture
> >techniques to extract information? Why would governments with infinitely
> >higher stakes act any differently?
>
> Are you trying to convince yourself?
>
> But, yeah, if it was an option then I'd use torture and heaping
> helpings of it at that if my family were involved or could be spared
> suffering. Isn't this slippery slope stuff, though?

We are already half way down that slope!

> The world is one @#$%ed up place.

Truer words were never said

> Curt
> http://curtjames.com/
>

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:16:28 GMT, "David" <forgotwhy@yahoo.com.au>
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>
>"David" <forgotwhy@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
>news:inPGe.67126$oJ.6044@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> I firmly believe that western governments need to do whatever it takes to
>> extract information from terrorists/bombers that they are holding. There
>can
>> be no rights for people who are intent on destroying our civilization.
>> Selective torture techniques must be on the menu for these barbarians or
>we
>> are shirking our duty to protect our way of life. Really, if we knew that
>> torture applied to one individual could have prevented 9/11 with 3000
>lives
>> lost and 1000 billion dollars down the drain can there be any argument??
>The
>> next strike could mean 1 million lives lost.
>>
>
>Frinstance - if you held a man prisoner who you suspected had your missing
>daughter somewhere and she was in danger - would you not apply any torture
>techniques to extract information? Why would governments with infinitely
>higher stakes act any differently?
>
I don't believe torture is a very reliable way to extract information.
I believe drugs are a better way of going.

In article <inPGe.67126$oJ.6044@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
"David" <forgotwhy@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

> I firmly believe that western governments need to do whatever it takes to
> extract information from terrorists/bombers that they are holding. There can
> be no rights for people who are intent on destroying our civilization.
> Selective torture techniques must be on the menu for these barbarians or we
> are shirking our duty to protect our way of life. Really, if we knew that
> torture applied to one individual could have prevented 9/11 with 3000 lives
> lost and 1000 billion dollars down the drain can there be any argument?? The
> next strike could mean 1 million lives lost.
>
>

Maybe...
but it'd drag us down to their level imho.

What ever happened to truth drugs??????
--
Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-*****." -Jack Nicholson

In article <tkjne1l2r9to5og9n5vv3cppdu89k2k0cl@4ax.com>,
John Hanson <jhanson@northernlinks.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:16:28 GMT, "David" <forgotwhy@yahoo.com.au>
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
> >
> >"David" <forgotwhy@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> >news:inPGe.67126$oJ.6044@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> >> I firmly believe that western governments need to do whatever it takes to
> >> extract information from terrorists/bombers that they are holding. There
> >can
> >> be no rights for people who are intent on destroying our civilization.
> >> Selective torture techniques must be on the menu for these barbarians or
> >we
> >> are shirking our duty to protect our way of life. Really, if we knew that
> >> torture applied to one individual could have prevented 9/11 with 3000
> >lives
> >> lost and 1000 billion dollars down the drain can there be any argument??
> >The
> >> next strike could mean 1 million lives lost.
> >>
> >
> >Frinstance - if you held a man prisoner who you suspected had your missing
> >daughter somewhere and she was in danger - would you not apply any torture
> >techniques to extract information? Why would governments with infinitely
> >higher stakes act any differently?
> >
> I don't believe torture is a very reliable way to extract information.
> I believe drugs are a better way of going.

Hear hear!

Torture can yield unreliable information.
Torture victims tend to tell their torturers what they think they want
to hear just to get the pain stopped.

I don't understand why drugs are not used more?
--
Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-*****." -Jack Nicholson

"John Hanson" <jhanson@northernlinks.com> wrote in message
news:tkjne1l2r9to5og9n5vv3cppdu89k2k0cl@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:16:28 GMT, "David" <forgotwhy@yahoo.com.au>
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
> >
> >"David" <forgotwhy@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> >news:inPGe.67126$oJ.6044@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> >> I firmly believe that western governments need to do whatever it takes
to
> >> extract information from terrorists/bombers that they are holding.
There
> >can
> >> be no rights for people who are intent on destroying our civilization.
> >> Selective torture techniques must be on the menu for these barbarians
or
> >we
> >> are shirking our duty to protect our way of life. Really, if we knew
that
> >> torture applied to one individual could have prevented 9/11 with 3000
> >lives
> >> lost and 1000 billion dollars down the drain can there be any
argument??
> >The
> >> next strike could mean 1 million lives lost.
> >>
> >
> >Frinstance - if you held a man prisoner who you suspected had your
missing
> >daughter somewhere and she was in danger - would you not apply any
torture
> >techniques to extract information? Why would governments with infinitely
> >higher stakes act any differently?
> >
> I don't believe torture is a very reliable way to extract information.
> I believe drugs are a better way of going.

There is some debate about the effectiveness of drugs. My point is that we
should do whatever it takes with zero regard to prisoners 'rights'.

On 2005-07-30, David <forgotwhy@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> "David" <forgotwhy@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:inPGe.67126$oJ.6044@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> I firmly believe that western governments need to do whatever it takes to
>> extract information from terrorists/bombers that they are holding. There
>> can be no rights for people who are intent on destroying our civilization.
>> Selective torture techniques must be on the menu for these barbarians or we
>> are shirking our duty to protect our way of life.

Only if they are more effective than other techniques.

>> Really, if we knew that
>> torture applied to one individual could have prevented 9/11 with 3000 lives
>> lost and 1000 billion dollars down the drain can there be any argument??
>> The next strike could mean 1 million lives lost.
>>
>
> Frinstance - if you held a man prisoner who you suspected had your missing
> daughter somewhere and she was in danger - would you not apply any torture
> techniques to extract information? Why would governments with infinitely
> higher stakes act any differently?

This sort of scenario is not as hypothetical as you make it seem. It is not
unusual for criminals to hold useful information, and also not unusual for
them to turn into informants.

The problem with torture as a means of extracting information, is that the
person being tortured is motivated to talk, even if they don't have any
useful information.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"OmManiPadmeOmelet" <Omelet@brokenegz.com> wrote in message
news:Omelet-E998B4.14045830072005@corp.supernews.com...
> In article <inPGe.67126$oJ.6044@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
> "David" <forgotwhy@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> > I firmly believe that western governments need to do whatever it takes
to
> > extract information from terrorists/bombers that they are holding. There
can
> > be no rights for people who are intent on destroying our civilization.
> > Selective torture techniques must be on the menu for these barbarians or
we
> > are shirking our duty to protect our way of life. Really, if we knew
that
> > torture applied to one individual could have prevented 9/11 with 3000
lives
> > lost and 1000 billion dollars down the drain can there be any argument??
The
> > next strike could mean 1 million lives lost.
> >
> >
>
> Maybe...
> but it'd drag us down to their level imho.
>
> What ever happened to truth drugs??????
> --
> Om.

Apparently there is conisderable debate about truth drugs and whether they
are effective. Here we worry about pulling out a fingernail while they are
beheading our people!

"Donovan Rebbechi" <abuse@aol.com> wrote in message
news:slrndenlh6.kod.abuse@panix2.panix.com...
> On 2005-07-30, David <forgotwhy@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> >
> > "David" <forgotwhy@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> > news:inPGe.67126$oJ.6044@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> >> I firmly believe that western governments need to do whatever it takes
to
> >> extract information from terrorists/bombers that they are holding.
There
> >> can be no rights for people who are intent on destroying our
civilization.
> >> Selective torture techniques must be on the menu for these barbarians
or we
> >> are shirking our duty to protect our way of life.
>
> Only if they are more effective than other techniques.
>
> >> Really, if we knew that
> >> torture applied to one individual could have prevented 9/11 with 3000
lives
> >> lost and 1000 billion dollars down the drain can there be any
argument??
> >> The next strike could mean 1 million lives lost.
> >>
> >
> > Frinstance - if you held a man prisoner who you suspected had your
missing
> > daughter somewhere and she was in danger - would you not apply any
torture
> > techniques to extract information? Why would governments with infinitely
> > higher stakes act any differently?
>
> This sort of scenario is not as hypothetical as you make it seem. It is
not
> unusual for criminals to hold useful information, and also not unusual for
> them to turn into informants.
>
> The problem with torture as a means of extracting information, is that the
> person being tortured is motivated to talk, even if they don't have any
> useful information.
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Donovan Rebbechi
> http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

my point is that we we seem to be guided by human rights issues in
Guantanamo etc and I think the only consideration should be what are the
most effective techniqes to extract info and screw the human rights with
this particular breed

David wrote:

> There is some debate about the effectiveness of drugs. My point is that we
> should do whatever it takes with zero regard to prisoners 'rights'.

Torture can be pretty unreliable itself. Torture someone cruelly
enough and they'll confess to anything just to get you to stop. There
is no guarantee that the information given under torture will be
accurate.

And of course there is the truly horrific possibility that a person who
is completely innocent would be tortured. You'd want to have virtual
certainty that the torture subject would actually have the information
you need before you go reaching for the hammer and pliers.

Travis

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:02:56 -0500, John Hanson
<jhanson@northernlinks.com> wrote:

>I don't believe torture is a very reliable way to extract information.
>I believe drugs are a better way of going.

John's right! Smoke a couple of joints with me, and I'll talk my head
off for a Twinkie.

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:31:27 -0500, OmManiPadmeOmelet
<Omelet@brokenegz.com> wrote:

>I don't understand why drugs are not used more?

I use plenty here, so I'm doing my part.

On 2005-07-30, David <forgotwhy@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

> my point is that we we seem to be guided by human rights issues in
> Guantanamo etc and I think the only consideration should be what are the
> most effective techniqes to extract info

My point is that you've yet to demonstrate any conflict between honoring
human rights and extracing information.

The "screw human rights" attitude produces a lot of random abberant behaviour
from some of the troops, which costs a lot in terms of credibility (for
example, consider what happens next time the US ask China or Saudi Arabia or
Iran to clean up their act on human rights.) *and* gives little in terms of
information.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/