Use a power Tap or disk wheel - Page 3

A part from the who said what, I'm not impressed, no disrespect intended. Anyway, if I were to purchase a disk wheel I would undoubtedly know that I would be reaping the rewards of a better time during a TT. That said I would have guessed that you would have sided heavily on the use of a PM as opposed to a disk wheel as it would render better time. So like I said in one of the above posts, you may be better off learning how your body feels (RPE) and being aided with a heart rate monitor during a TT, than ever using a PM during a TT. I'm thinking that the benefit to using a PM during a TT, is that one could base interval intensities but while doing the TT you may want to put tape over the watts readout.

If you're replying to me then you have misinterpreted what i wrote. I have not suggested one way or the other what my preference is for power meter use/non-use in a TT.

Ric

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I think you should use a disc, if for no other reason than that you will believe that will give you the fastest time. I think that one's psychological frame of mind is very important to athletic performance and at this point there is no data or study that would persuade you of the merits of pacing with a PM. And, BTW, there probably never will be because no sample of cyclists is going to pace themselves with and without a PM exactly as you would. I have offered up the benefits of my personal experience and thinking about pacing with a PM but, as you said, you're not impressed. Good luck in your TT. I hope you have your personal best time.

Well, thanks for your good will and good luck in your endeavors as well.

Robert, if you asked us "How much time will a disk wheel save me?" We would have had to answer "It depends (on the length of the TT, the speed you ride, and the equipment that you're currently using) but the disk will probably help you." Instead, you've asked us "Which will help me more, a disk or a PM?" and we've answered "It depends, but both will be probably help." You've got to understand that we're not trying to impress or persuade you, but rather to give you an answer that you (and any lurkers who are reading this) can use and apply in your own situation.

What I've heard said is that:
1) The ability to pace oneself is highly individual, but riders typically do a poor job of pacing based on HR or RPE. The slow feedback loop provided by HR or RPE typically results in a large overshoot of effort at the beginning of the ride, and a sagging effort in the middle. If you are a typical rider in that regard, a PM will help with this and save you time - probably lots of time.
2) Experience does not necessarily improve one's ability to pace, as even very high level athletes make the same mistakes as newbies in terms of pacing. Expecting that you can train yourself to pace as effectively based on HR or RPE as you could with a PM may not be reasonable.
3) A PM gives additional benefit by allowing someone to apply a variable power strategy which matches and is optimized for the specific conditions of the course. This will save time over even a properly ridden constant paced effort, and will save even more time over an improperly paced effort.
4) The benefits of pacing with a PM are real, and significant for typical riders. They are difficult to *quantify* on an online forum, however, because of they vary based on the individual and TT conditions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert West So like I said in one of the above posts, you may be better off learning how your body feels (RPE) and being aided with a heart rate monitor during a TT, than ever using a PM during a TT. I'm thinking that the benefit to using a PM during a TT, is that one could base interval intensities but while doing the TT you may want to put tape over the watts readout.

You said that? What's the rationale for that statement? I can't think of *any* disadvantage that having a power readout would create, so why would you tape over the display?

Yes, you would have caught *and passed* yourself later in the TT. There is a fixed quantity of power you can apply to the pedals over the course of a given TT and if you use too much at the beginning then you'll have less to give at the end. The problem is that on a bike, power output is proportional to the speed raised to the third power! Because of that, you get much less benefit from a high power start than you would hope, and the optimal use of your limited resource is at a steady level (for a flat, windless course).

On a variable course, a variable power output can give you an even better time for the same total output, compared to a constant power pace.

Now thats an answer without asking another question. Hard to come by on this forum and I guess for good reason but kind of frustrating. Thank you for your patience. I hope this thread continues as I would like to see other peoples take on this?

If you want to see a little bit more while you wait for some replies, there is a thread that addresses very similar issues here and includes some other info:

http://cyclingforums.com/t-272895-15-1.html

Thx, it seems we have the same notions about pacing vs aerodynamics. Are you satisfied with what you learned?

I think the answers from others were very helpful. The ideal situation is probably SRM + Disc but since I most likely can't get my hands on that setup I will experiment. I suspect I will end up pacing off power but it remains to be seen.

I agree, the SRM/disk is the best set up. I'm currently using a P.T. laced to a Zipp 808 rim. I think I'll sell this set up to enable the purchase of a SRM amature.Then get a disk later on next year.

Robert,
I might be interested in buying your 808 rear and PT (Pro or SL?)- if it's clincher that is ...

I have a set of std. 808's right now and they are the best TT wheels I've ever ridden.
rmur

I'm curious. At your current FT and assuming that you ride a 40K TT at a constant power precisely equal to your FT, what do you estimate the time savings of the disc (whichever disc you are considering) versus the Zipp 808?

I can only tell you that, I did a 40 Km TT a week ago and I did it in 58:15. I used a set of 404 clinchers as my wheel set. I used a HRM and RPE to pace myself. That said I may have started off harder than I should have, but I can tell you that I white knuckled the bars to the finish without fading to badly yet I had nothing left in the legs to spare for a sprint either.
Now I know that with a disk wheel I'll save time, how much, I'm not sure but I'll go out on a limb and say that I will save time (weather permitting). On the other hand no one on this forum has said definitively that I will even save a second using a PM. I guess it's a risk to say that but people like to imply that you might. I'm sorry if this is a bit ruff but I think it either works or it doesn't if no one is willing to say that it will out right work, that tells me that the planets and the moons just have to be inline for this to be right. A disk wheel works, simple no strings you buy it, you save time. Plus I want to shake this tree a bit harder, due to the Yapping dog chased a cat up there. no disrespect intended. I think it causes a learning curve somehow or maybe I just learn better this way.

I guess you and I just approach things differently. I think there are 5 ways to ride a faster TT time: (1) develop more sustainable power; (2) buy more aerodynamic equipment, including frame, wheels, helmet, skinsuit, etc.; (3) learn to ride in more aerodynamic positions; (4) develop an optimal pacing strategy specific to the course and conditions; and (5) learn to pace oneself better to be able to deploy the optimal pacing strategy effectively, including the use of available technology to assist pacing. I do not see these as mutually exclusive options, although with a limited budget (which applies to most of us) some options might be mutually exclusive from a cost consideration. It seems that you require proof that something will save you a certain number of minutes or seconds. I am willing to look at the logic and underlying scientific rationale of a premise to see if it shows promise to save time and, if possible, test it. As they say, different strokes for different folks. I'll repeat, I hope you have a great ride and set a personal best time. Good luck.