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What about TTs by NP Category? - Page 2

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  #16  
Old 09-22.-2005
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Default Re: What about TTs by NP Category?

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Originally Posted by flapsupcleanup
Of course, the higher NP classes would offer better prizes, (prettier podium girls?) so if enought guys sandbagged to do better in the lower classes, then that would open up opportunities in the upper NP classes. Actually that's sort of how our weekly crits go here. A strong rider could come in and blow away the 5's but there wouldnt be much to brag on for him. I, on the other hand could feel pretty proud of doing well in the 5's or 4's. So I think it would work itself out. We've just gotta wait till everyone has PM's.
Right. And, in the meantime, build a bigger engine.
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  #17  
Old 09-22.-2005
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Default Re: What about TTs by NP Category?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flatscan
This is the second time you've mentioned MIT students, I guess as a point of "brain over brawn". MIT has a cycling "club" (i.e. non-recognized) team, though I don't know how competitive they are, but a large portion of the student body is sedentary and would likely fall into the lowest possible power bracket.
Thanks for mentioning that, and I certainly wasn't trying to demean MIT or the students that go there. MIT is just a school that I hear about as being a top contender in technology-application type contests such as solar-power vehicles, robotics, etc. where the crux of the competition revolves around complex problem solving.

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Originally Posted by Flatscan
These students would be out of contention regardless of how hard they thought.
On the contrary, if the bracketing were extended low enough then they might do quite well based on ingenuity and technology alone.

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Originally Posted by Flatscan
On the other hand, there is high participation in intramural sports, where winning is emphasized (though not usually to the point of outright cheating). Power-bracketed TTs would probably be "gamed" (i.e. deliberate slowing to stay within a bracket) in order to 1) assure high placing in 2) the highest guaranteed bracket.
Power-bracketed TTs are a fun idea to think about, but I think they would attract a whole different class of specialist athlete if they ever became popular. I don't think the conventional racing cyclists would have much use for them.

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Originally Posted by Flatscan
I'm hoping to "race" against some friends at the beginning of next season. At the moment, it seems that they have more power available, though not a drastic advantage. I plan to increase my power available for the relevant time/distance, precisely map the course, and deploy a VP strategy. If the weather stays nice until my PT gets here, we might see how useful analytics is without training.
Best of luck. Let us know how it goes.
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  #18  
Old 09-23.-2005
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Default Re: What about TTs by NP Category?

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Originally Posted by frenchyge
It'd be great for MIT students who would rather think their way through the race than ride a bike all winter trying to get fit.
While there may be some students who fit that description, they would be a small minority as shown here: http://web.mit.edu/facts/athletics.shtml
" MIT sponsors the broadest intercollegiate athletic program in the country, with 41 varsity teams (21 for men, 17 for women, 3 coeducational). MIT competes mainly against Division III New England colleges and Ivy League schools, but also routinely participates in regional and national tournaments and championships. There are more than 20 intramural programs, with over 1,000 teams and a 75 percent undergraduate participation rate. "
and
"MIT has earned 119 All-America citations, the highest total among any Division III program in the nation."
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  #19  
Old 09-23.-2005
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Default Re: What about TTs by NP Category?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RapDaddyo
Right. And, in the meantime, build a bigger engine.
OK, I've been trying to refine our intellectual exercise. Since you found my handicap idea to have some merit, we can make this work without powermeters. The "trick" is we need to have a "pre-event" 3-mile TT (think of it as a prologue). 3 miles should take between 7 and 8 minutes, too short for strategies, so with the exception of someone sandbagging, it should be a fairly good analog for power. Then for each rider, we use our handy laptop computer to calculate avg speed for the 3 miles, and scale that up to the predicted finishing time for our full-scale TT (I would extrapolate linearly without trying to get too sophisticated). Then we start the slowest rider off first, the second rider goes off at the "differential" predicted vs. the first rider (i.e. if we expect him to be 10 seconds faster over the distance, he starts 10 seconds after the first rider), etc. Fastest rider goes last, exactly as long as the difference between his and the slowest predicted finish. If our handicapping were perfect, everyone hits the finish line at the same time. Except in the longer event, endurance, pacing, etc. all come into play, so there should be some spreading out. And we stick a video camera at the finish, to sort out those who do come in almost simultaneously (just as we have a camera at most of the mass-start races I ride). Finishing order is then exactly the order in which riders cross the line, although of course we record a time for each. Seems to me to have two nice features: the handicapping gives the slower (less powerful) rider a shot at a high placing, and faster riders have potentially a steady stream of "targets" to chase down. Plus no waiting around at the finish for a last rider, you know your relative placing almost immediately. And if you do this as part of a series, you can use each TT to handicap the next one, essentially eliminating the sandbagging. You know, if someone ran one of these in NJ, even I, the pathetically underpowered TT rider, might give it a shot!
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  #20  
Old 09-23.-2005
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Default Re: What about TTs by NP Category?

Quote:
Originally Posted by palewin
OK, I've been trying to refine our intellectual exercise. Since you found my handicap idea to have some merit, we can make this work without powermeters. The "trick" is we need to have a "pre-event" 3-mile TT (think of it as a prologue). 3 miles should take between 7 and 8 minutes, too short for strategies, so with the exception of someone sandbagging, it should be a fairly good analog for power. Then for each rider, we use our handy laptop computer to calculate avg speed for the 3 miles, and scale that up to the predicted finishing time for our full-scale TT (I would extrapolate linearly without trying to get too sophisticated). Then we start the slowest rider off first, the second rider goes off at the "differential" predicted vs. the first rider (i.e. if we expect him to be 10 seconds faster over the distance, he starts 10 seconds after the first rider), etc. Fastest rider goes last, exactly as long as the difference between his and the slowest predicted finish. If our handicapping were perfect, everyone hits the finish line at the same time. Except in the longer event, endurance, pacing, etc. all come into play, so there should be some spreading out. And we stick a video camera at the finish, to sort out those who do come in almost simultaneously (just as we have a camera at most of the mass-start races I ride). Finishing order is then exactly the order in which riders cross the line, although of course we record a time for each. Seems to me to have two nice features: the handicapping gives the slower (less powerful) rider a shot at a high placing, and faster riders have potentially a steady stream of "targets" to chase down. Plus no waiting around at the finish for a last rider, you know your relative placing almost immediately. And if you do this as part of a series, you can use each TT to handicap the next one, essentially eliminating the sandbagging. You know, if someone ran one of these in NJ, even I, the pathetically underpowered TT rider, might give it a shot!
Well, it might get a little crowded as one approaches the finish line, don't you think? But, let's stay with this handicapping idea. Maybe we should borrow an idea from skiing. Ski races used to be just for good skiers. Unless you were pretty good, you weren't competitive. Then, in 1968 Ski Magazine invented the NASTAR (National Standard Races) program, to provide a competition forum for average skiers. They have a handicapping system, based on a time standard for each specific course for a world-class racer. The equivalent of a Lance Armstrong time, if you will. You're racing against this time, but with a handicap adjustment based on your actual ability. The NASTAR program is described here http://www.nastar.com/index.jsp?pagename=home. This program has been hugely successful. Last year 94,000 people competed in NASTAR races. I wonder how that compares with the number who competed in cycling races? There have to be many more people who ride bikes than ski. There should be many more people who compete in bike races than in ski races, based on the respective population of participants. NASTAR states their mission as follows: "Our mission is simple - to provide a fun, competitive and easily accessible racing program that, through the development of a handicap system, allows racers of all ages and abilities a means to compare themselves with one another regardless of when and where they race." That sounds like a reasonable mission statement for a new type of bike racing program, no?
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