Would like to get some expert opinions - Page 2

We really need to know how you define z1, as a % of 1-hr max power, if you can. Or just heart rate ranges. I think of zone 1 (using the zones developed by Dr. Coggan, again on the cp power 411 page) as pure recovery-no physiological effect. Even the effects of level 2-which may be closer to what you are calling level 1-are limited unless you have gobs of time to ride.

zone 1: < 136
zone 2: 136 - 149
zone 3: 150 - 155
zone 4: 156 - 166
zone 5a: 167 - 170
zone 5b: 171 - 176
zone 5c: 177+

Those look like Friel/Ultrafit Zones to me.

whoawhoa - Looking at your past posts it doesn't look like you agree with much of anything in the way of how I have been training. Just a quick glance and it looks like you don't agree with base miles or gym time for training. Is this correct? If so then I guess it is safe to say that you don't agree with Friel's methods either which is what my training is based on. The past few months I have spent about three days a week at the gym. The past couple of weeks we have started phasing the gym time out. I have also recently started plyometrics. Now that is a workout!

I have been with my coach since September and it is amazing how much I have improved in this amount of time. There is no one method that is going to work for everyone. However his method's (and friel's) do seem to work for me.

I'm definately looking forward to the middle of April, the start of my season.

Paul:

How did you do in the crit? I'm also curious as to what your NP for the TT yesterday? BTW, my teammate won the 4/5 TT! Good luck in the CR tomorrow.

Cheers,

Ethan

Hey Ethan, I'm not much of a crit man and just wanted to sit in and get a feel for the pace. I got caught behind a couple of guys at a key move 5 mins from the finish and didn't feel like closing the gap alone (wanted to save myself for the RR tomorrow) so didn't finish with the lead group. Power was 302/324 (AP/NP). Don't know my NP for the TT because my computer didn't save the data for some reason. It wouldn't have mattered. I rode my road bike without aero bars or wheels, and my training tires. I was a pretty funny sight out there amongst all those high-tech bikes. I have a 2nd computer (fortunately) and my backup works fine. Unfortunately, I caught a cold and feel like sh*t. Tomorrow's going to be an ordeal. I don't really care what happens. I just plan to attack on the last climb if my legs still work by then. Hell, I didn't plan to race again until this spring/summer, and was concerned early on whether one year was enough time to get in shape. So, as far as I'm concerned this is just late-stage training. I'll be happy if I'm not last. Are you racing? If so, good luck.

Yes they are , and should not be ignored. I've been following this forum for a couple of weeks and it seems some want to go as hard as they can in "zone 4" and have higher treshold power
What about 200 km races ?? you will need the zone 1 training a lot (IMHO )
I hardly go over hartrate 145 (zone 2 for me) but will do 1000km/month for the moment my treshold power is at +- 300 watt

You're an odd fellow you, you paid I don't know how much for a powertap and suitable wheel but you use standard wheels and tires in a TT. I've done some research and there's quite a difference in rolling resistance between tires. If you were using a kevlar puncture resistant tire then you'd get a considerable boost in going to something like a Vittoria Corsa Evo CX or Michelin Pro race 2 (or light), apparently two tires with some of the lowest rolling resistance around. In drafting, rr counts even more, so get some good tires and start kicking some ass!

-Bikeguy

You are right, I do not agree with many of Friel's ideas about training. Keep in mind that I am not arrogant enough to believe that I am somehow smarter than him or have more experience. However, most of my opinions have been developed by reading those of experienced coaches and excercise physiologists who put a heavy emphasis on fact and having research/scientific evidence to back there claims up. And this has led me to doubt the need for base training, the benefits of weight lifting, and the effects of "pedaling drills." I will not, however, tell you your coach is wrong or that you should do something different. Keep in mind, however, that much of the advice on this forum will differ from that of your coach. I think you should browse previous threads and develop your own opinions on weightlifting, base, pedaling technique etc. But if you are improving, and you like what you're doing, then by all means, continue on. Because that's the whole point, right?

Yup, that's the point. Thanks for your explanation. I guess it all comes down to the different strokes for different folks thing.

LOL. Thanks for the suggestion. I do appreciate it, and if you can point to me to any hard, independent research and data (excluding that published by the wheel manufacturers themselves) I would really appreciate that. I'm sure some here who know my attention to detail are chuckling, because I actually know a great deal about all the equipment one would get to go fast in a TT, including wheels and tires, and don't forget pacing -- I can't imagine this is a surprise. I just haven't finished my evaluation of certain pieces of the puzzle such as TT frames, so I haven't put my TT rig together yet. And, all my wheels will have PT SL 2.4 GHz hubs, so I have to wait a few more months to build my wheels. Once I do, plus do some position testing and complete my work on optimal pacing, yes, I will be a bit faster in a TT. But, I won't really need a race to test my TT speed. That's the cool thing about TTs. One can develop and test TT performance any time. Anyway, there's plenty of time. The first TT I care about is not until May 13th. That will probably be the first time I bring my full arsenal to a course (at least officially). Right now, I'm working on my engine. I want lots of rolling resistance and aerodynamic resistance. In fact, I'd love to have a front training wheel with a custom hub that I could dial in a little resistance (e.g., 10-100w, in 10w increments). Know where I can get one?

As you're finding out when you ask a question here you'll get serveral different answers. For the last 4 seasons I used the Friel methodology and saw significant improvements in my peformance progressing from cat 5 to 3 and even winning a few races along the way.

This year after spending a lot of time educating myself in the principles of exercise physiology (on this forum, pubmed studies, topica wattage, etc.) I decided to fly solo and build my own plan.

My performance this year is significantly better than last year (my first year using a power meter) based on interval power and testing I've done and that is despite my total hours being down by 13% (although my cumulative TSS is up a similar amount).

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that even though one is improving it doesn't mean the plan you're working to should be considered optimal. The trick in this whole training plan development process is finding which plan will deliver the best results, which is no easy task. This is perhaps the "art" of coaching, which can take years of working with someone, that is if it's even possible to know when you've achieved peak performance.

Now that would make for an interesting topic...how do you know when you've achieved all that you can?

You may need low-intensity training to be able to ride 200 races (which very few amatuers need to do) but it's a high functional threshold power that will let you "race," that is, go hard over the duration of the race.

Let's not start a # dropping war, now. BTW, many posters here do that much or significantly more volume while including plenty of l3-l6 work.

That's the problem with anecdotal training evidence. When one is significantly undertrained and follows almost any training regimen that calls for some time at power levels that result in an increase in power (e.g., L4-L7 in our language), then power predictably increases. The cyclist (and maybe even the coach) then reach the conclusion that the improvement is the result of the specific training regimen. What they don't realize is that any of literally hundreds of workout "recipes" would have produced similar results. This is why I really only want to know one thing about someone's training regimen -- how many minutes per week of L4-L7 intervals, by level. I'm not proclaiming myself as an expert at training regimens, but I am not persuaded that all the rest of the detail of one's training regimen matters, including my own. There's a corollary here in SAT testing (maybe of interest to you soon) and a whole industry has been built on the back of a fallacy. Here's the way it works. A prospective college applicant takes a practice test, then follows the training program of test prep company XYZ and takes another practice test. Scores go up ~100 points. The test prep company takes full credit for the higher scores as the result of their "scientifically developed, optimal training program." What they don't tell the student is that if you simply take a practice test, do any sort of work on fundamentals and then take the test again, your scores go up by ~100 points. Magic!

I agree, I was just trying not to jump on the OP's training method. If he's happy with his program, I think it makes sense to stay on it, until he decides he'll be better off with something else.