Power difference - indoor Vs outdoor - Page 11

i don't think this really says anything about the benefits of riding inside (without inertial loading) or not... it just shows that there are real reasons why some riders may not be able to perform without inertial loading as with it other than concentration.

and from a practical point of view how would you even test it... it would likely take years to change a person's musculature to support smooth vs. peaky torque riding and in the end maybe it's not that method A is better than method B.. maybe the biomechanics, muscle type make-up.. etc. of individuals would make one method better for rider A and the other method better for rider B...??

anecdotally it seems that TT'rs use the smooth torque method... but if a peaky torque rider switched methods would they become better at TTs? would other areas of their riding suffer as a result? anecdotally, good TT'rs aren't the really the explosive types... ?? maybe good TTrs just pedal the way they do because their bodies are set up for that and as a result they are good TTrs...

The previous description was when I'm intentionally focusing on the downstrokes. At those times, I tend to relax the rest of the way around except for a small upward pull at about 10 o'clock to help accentuate the impulse at 2 o'clock.

Indoors, I find it more effective to mentally focus on the top and bottom of the stroke, and just let the downstroke take care of itself. The sensation is more like pedalling linearly forward and backward rather than up and down, but the power is right there.

It would be interesting to see how our torque curves compare. Where can I find one of those force measured pedal ergos, anyway?

Couldn't have put it better myself

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Pinarello Paris FP Carbon

I just got my CycleOps Fluid2 trainer and I remembered this discussion from a few months back.

To me, it seems like there really is a more roadlike feel to the Fluid2 compared to other trainers. I find it easier to maintain a higher power on the Fluid2, compared to my old Tacx I-magic.

I particularly like the different feeling I get when standing. On the I-magic I felt that the wheel and my downstroke accelerated quite a bit due to the little mass and resistance provided by the i-magic. This gave me kind of a "jumpy" feeling and I had to place a little bit of weight on my arms to compensate for this effect. However, with the Fluid2 there is much more resistance in the system, and the acceleration of the wheel and my downstroke is much less. I feel I can now stand in a more realistic way, i.e. I can follow the downstroke all the way through instead of "losing it" halfway through due to the acceleration.

I don't know if I managed to describe this in a way that makes sense to you...

Bottom line is that I like the Fluid2 better, I actually find it easier to generate more power and it feels more roadlike than the i-magic.

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CycleFast

Good choice. I think it's the trainer of choice for those without a PM who want to train with power. I think the 1UP may be another good choice, but I haven't seen as much data on it.

How strange. So you traded all the nice virtual reality stuff for better "road feel"? Of course, I too face this power issue related (at least in part) to the use of a Tacx product, so I am not questioning or criticizing your choice. Not at all.

But here. Let me put it this way. Road feel is one part of this "loss in power" equation. But motivational (at least for me) is even a bigger part. I need to focus on something else than the interval elapsed time, cause then I have this word "quit" "quit" "quit" that ringing strong in my mind 60 times /min.

You may need to upgrade the firmware. I think the latest rev. has changed that to "go" "go" "go"......

My roommate and I own a Fluid2 and a Kurt Kinetic Road Machine. The Road Machine has a much larger flywheel. Without any adaption period i was able to do significantly (>20 watts) more on the Road Machine for 20min intervals. This fact made me want to throw my Fluid2 in the dumpster! My roommate and I argued what could possibly be the difference with everything from the flywheel to the sampling rate of the PM. No conclusions to add, just thought i'd throw in my $.02 since you were so happy with the Fluid2 and I know Andy uses a Velodyne and RD drools over pictures of them while he's on his trainer.

Kreitler now has some wattage number for their rollers at different speeds and accessories... extra flywheel, "Killer Headwind Fan" etc. measured with an SRM.

what is interesting is that with and without a 10lb flywheel numbers differ by 47W at 20mph and by as much as 135W at 44mph... but if inertal load isn't the cause of the indoor - outdoor wattage difference and it's all in riders heads, then why would there be any difference between these numbers? same conditions and the only variable is the addition of a flywheel.

http://www.kreitler.com/content/trainer_wattage.pdf

also for those that don't think you can't get a good workout on rollers have a look at the max wattage with the headwind fan installed and vent fully open... yep that's right 1872W.. i have done 800+ W on mine... sounds like a 747 taking off but of contary to popular belief there is no lack resistance...

Somehow the flywheel adds resistance. With the flywheel, I can ride without the fan and get a reasonable amount of resistance. However, my flywheel is badly out of balance and shakes the beejezus out of me, the rollers, and the floor so I rarely use it.

Winters here are relatively mild and I'm getting a Velodyne in the near future so I may end up getting rid of the Kreitlers.

One word, friction. The flywheel not only adds inertia, but the band/bearings add considerable drag.

But the cool thing is, with rollers (with and without a flywheel), the speed vs power relationship is linear. If you properly calibrate and control things like rider, tires, and tire pressure, your speedometer can be your power meter with a little bit of linear regression. Problem with the fan attachments is that their speed vs power relationship is non-linear (probably more like real world riding but you lose that simple speed - power relationship).

I have and use both (Velodyne and Kreitler Dyno-Myte Rollers) and wouldn't get rid of either. Variety is good IMHO when it comes to indoor training and each tool has it's own advantages and disadvantages.

What are the disadvantages of the Velodyne?

It's heavy, takes up a bit more space than a rear-wheel-mount-only trainer, and requires 110 V AC to run. Unlike rollers, it also does nothing for your bike handling skills/pedaling "fluidity". Still, I wouldn't give mine up for anything, and if it ever dies, would look to replace it with something comparable.