Neuromuscular power question--for A. Coggan (or anyone else) - Page 2

There has been a lot of good info here. Thanks. Just to clarify, I'm an expert class 40-plus mountain bike racer who has no ambition to race on the road. I do a road group ride at least once a week, and there's a couple sprint competitions during it that I just try to hang close and normally finish in the top 5. I credit this to my lactate threshhold and Vo2max condition more than my sprinting ability.

My biggest limiter in mountain bike races has been short uphills where you need to power up and then resume race pace. I usually make it up them in laps 1, 2, and 3, but on the 4th and final lap (around mile 20), I start having trouble producing enough power to get up them. I don't have trouble getting back up to race pace afterward though. And longer (for Florida anyway) climbs don't affect me at all.

So, I want to really target improving neuromuscular power, and like someone said earlier, I think some, especially me, probably don't work near enough on it. And my 5-second power numbers point that out. As another said, my sprinting technique probably needs work. But all I want to do is see improvement in my power numbers. I just finished my ninth week of base training. I begin my build cycle Monday. Florida race season begins in September.

--Dean

Here's a block of intervals I use in the very early part of the season. 10" sprint on the flat, 50" recovery, then go again. 4-6 sprints per block then 4-5' rest. Repeat for a total of up to ~30 sprints. Start with maybe 12-15 of these sprints in total, and add some each week to the total. Maybe it takes you 5-6 weeks to reach 30 sprints. Do some blocks in the saddle but most blocks out of the saddle.

Then you can progress to doing 10-20" sprints on a hill with longer rests as the sprint durations increase, like 1' rest for the 10" sprints and 3' rest for the 20" sprints.

Or you're some skinny-ass dude with a lot of slow twitch fibers, whose kilo performance is best measured using an egg timer...

FWIW, I tested my 5 s power twice during my ride today. The first time I did an all-out standing start in a 39x15, which is bigger than the 39x19 I usually use. Not unexpectedly, I couldn't get up to optimal cadence quickly enough, such that even my peak 1.26 s power was <800 W (I haven't downloaded the PowerTap yet to see the 5 s peak, but normally when doing a standing start test such as above I can crack 900 W for one reading).

Later in the ride, I rode easily for a couple of minutes and then coasted for ~30 s down a hill before lauching into a sprint in my 53x12. This time I was able to get on top of the gear quite quickly, and my power was >800 W for at least 5 s. Again, I haven't downloaded the file yet, but based on that fact I expect that the 5 s average will be about where it always is, i.e., I wasn't unduly fatigued today. (Indeed, I routinely test my 5 s power both ways, and there is not a significant difference.)

Bottom line: the key to reproducibly measuring your maximal neuromuscular power is to establish conditions that allow you to reach optimal cadence before significant fatigue begins to develop (i.e., w/in a few seconds). Whether you're going uphill, downhill, or are on level ground doesn't matter, unless you're insufficiently rested prior to the start of the effort as a result of, e.g., "winding it up" first.

So, what does it mean if one can produce the same 5s max power with or without "winding it up?"

Am I the only one whose sprints look like this? I almost always see my power peak as a result of the initial launch, rather than the 120-130 rpm sustained effort. Or is this just indicative of a slow-leg roadie sprint?

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Well, for those of us who can sprint at least reasonably well, if I start a sprint on flat ground near my optimal cadence for this kind of test I rapidly go above that optimal cadence, thus my mention of doing it on an uphill to keep the cadence from going up too far.

Practiced technique really can make a difference.

No. Training to improve the length of your sprint could help a lot.

Your peak power was close to 120 rpm's. Not unusual, but try to start your test closer to that cadence and see if that helps make the watts higher. Practice sprinting at rpm's from 110-130 will help too.

Of course, by the end of a race you probably can't do the same high rpm's that you can during your rested test, so you'll have to decide which information is really the most useful to you.

FWIW, I often do sprint training after other training in the session that is not easy.

Thats similar looking to lots of mine. Different numbers though.

Nope, quite similar to mine.

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If that's the case, then you haven't met the criteria I described. You need to be going slower when you start, pick a bigger gear, or do the sprint uphill (as you do).

I think it's more indicative of the difficulty the PowerTap has in determining cadence when it's changing rapidly.

Frenchy: Were you using crank or hub cadence?

Mine: Hub cadence, hence the jerky response.

Interesting: Our peak power occurs at about 115 rpm. So, should we try jumping from 115 rpm (slightly uphill) and then shifing for optimal sprinting performance? (where optimal perfomance for me is peak power and 5s power). I also have a goal to not lose speed at the end of a sprint.

Remember, we're talking about two different things in this thread: Training sprinting and sprinting. In a competition situation I'd never wind up a 39x17 from a stop, but I do appreciate that it builds needed strength.

Going slower or using a bigger gear results in a lower cadence. Doing it uphill tends to keep the cadence (and speed) about the same during the effort.

That flat line at the 140 mark looks like the cadence might have gone into default mode. I have had the magnet fall off, and it still gave estimates. I was doing some high cadence sprints and PT kept giving me 141 for max cadence.

How have you attached the magnet? The PT ziptie thing looked useless to me so I just took the magnet out and attached it to the crank with some araldite. Job done.