Can a 300PT get me up Mt. Diablo <1:00? - Page 2

creekbruin · #16 01-24.-2007

Warner:

I am lucky enough to live in Walnut Creek, very near to Mt. Diablo (on the South side) and I have done the Mountain Challenge.

One big hint--if you want to do that time, then you better position yourself at the beginning of the pack at the very start i.e. you better get to the front before the start so you don't have to work your way through the crowd. It can take several minutes just to get through the start if you don't put yourself at the front to begin with.

Given your genetics, as evidenced by the time you did before, I certainly think you have the capability to do that time. As you correctly surmise, being whippet thin would help.

I think you are overemphasizing equipment over training. Though I am without personal experience with the Cycle Ops Pro 300 PT, my impression is that it will serve you well as a trainer. I don't, however, think that you can get by with just a trainer.

As far as I am concerned, you have to climb as often as you can to get better at it. I like the idea of doing low cadence (in the 50s) high resistance early on. In fact, that is how I have been training when I go up the Mountain lately. To do the time you are talking about, I would suspect (not having done that time myself), that you would need to spend a lot of time at or above your threshold after you lay down your base. Think of the Challenge as an hour long hill time trial. The thing about the South side is that it never gets really steep for very long. The first section, just past the Athenian School, has some steep pitches and it is kind of a pain the ass when you are trying to develop a rhythm at the beginning but it gets better after that. It flattens out around Rock City and you can really rocket through that section. Past the Junction it does get steep again and that final 1000 feet at 18 percent is a real bear.

If I were trying to plan an indoor training plan for the Mt. Diablo Challenge, I would try to get a handle on how much power, in Watts, I would need to average to handle pitches that vary from 6 to 13 percent at 12 miles per hour. Of course, I would throw in a very stiff resistance at the end to simulate the 18 percent grade. Cruel, I know, but it is the reality.

I must confess that I truly love climbing Mt. Diablo. I love everything about it... the snow at the top in Winter, the Tarantulas crossing the road in the Fall, the places hollowed out in the rocks where the Indians ground their food, dancing down the descent as the sun goes down in the summer, climbing through the clouds to get the top (yes I mean literally climbing through clouds). Wonderful stuff. I am a lucky man even if I am a Southsider.

Southside Glenn, member of the Diablo Cyclists.

Quote:

Originally Posted by warnerjh

OK, long time lurker, first time poster (here in the Power Forum). I apologize in advance for the rather dubious lead-in to quite a few questions I have, being completely new to this 'power' thing. I have been scouring this forum for the last week, doing lots of reading, and you all are a wealth of information!

BACKGROUND: 42M, never raced, ride both road and mountain anywhere from 500-2000 miles per year, formerly hated riding the trainer indoors, but did it anyway (way back when). 5'10", medium build. I've been told I have big legs.

Mt. Diablo Challenge: Former best time is 1:02:48 (back in the early 90's), for the 10.8 mile, 3350' climb (Danville/Walnut Creek, CA). For those of you unfamiliar, this is one of the finest climbs in the US, bar none.

CURRENT: Been pretty lazy since having two sons in the last 7 years, and only riding a bit (500-1000 per year), mostly road. Finally accomplished one of my cylcing goals 2 years ago and did the Bob Cook Memorial up to the summit of Mt. Evans, CO, in about 3:19 (for the 6500' climb to 14,270' MSL). When my weight hit 199.5 on October 21, 2006, I finally had had enough. I want to meet my grandchildren!

---------------------------------------------------->
Fast-forward to today, and I've been trying to eat better, been riding even though it approaches winter here in Colorado, and have re-mounted the trainer in the basement for 90-minute 'calorie sloughs'. My weight is down to 184, and I should be at 174 by the first week of January, and about 162 by 2nd week of February. Yes, you heard it here first, folks. This initial phase is concentrated on fat-dropping, regardless of effect upon my muscle mass. I'm eating well to prevent as much muscle loss as possible, but it's inevitable with a 1500-1800 cal/day diet. I'm lucky enough to live at the base of Lookout Mountain here in Golden, CO, so have a 4.4 mile, 1400' training climb 7 minutes from my door.

Here's where y'all's opinion comes in, assuming you've made it this far.

After a fair amount of research, I have a CycleOps Pro 300PT waiting to be picked up, a gift for my wife and I for Christmas. She is a dedicated health enthusiast and professional, and she's been riding her Cannondale R900 on our old-school Blackburn Mag Trackstand nearly every morning for practically as long as we've been together. Due to my permanent commmitment to future health, the 300PT will be the mainstay of my off-season health maintenance, and the new wheels I also got her for her bike will keep it off the trainer. The 300PT really appealed to my sense of being a cyclist, since it appears to be designed for cyclists, not gym-spin rats (not that there's anything wrong with the gym).

My questions:

1) As far as the 300PT goes, I'd really like to hear people's impressions of it, in detail. Is it about the best indoor cycle out there? I assume it's beefy enough to be able to stand and really crank, without moving all over like my bike does on the trainer.

This will be the first experience we've had with a fixed-gear setup, and I have to admit I'm a bit unsettled about it. I really like to stop and stretch occasionally, and I can't imagine braking that big flywheel to a stop to do so, only to have get the thing going again.

Does the lack of a 'proper' road-style 'drop' handlebar bug anyone?

I've spoken with the Product Manager at Saris about this product, and despite their assertion that they've designed this unit 'for cyclists', I can't get my ahead around the fact that speed at a constant cadence doesn't increase with an increase in resistance setting. Seems completely counterintuitive to me (not being a fixed-gear guy), and it would seem that having a fixed relationship between cadence and speed (at varying resistance) is no less inaccurate than having the computer try to calculate a speed based upon the resistance setting. [I do realize that training with power makes looking at numbers like speed and HR somewhat irrelevant, but I'm a numbers kind of guy] Maybe I simply need to re-calibrate my brain to think of an increase in effort on the 300PT to be similar to an increase in grade, but my brain wants to see it as speed. It's odd, since most of my time on the bike is climbing... ???

I have read every 300PT thread on this forum back through 1/06, and have run across the Pez.com review. Actual detailed user experiences would be great!

2) The Mt. Diablo Challenge is the first Sunday in October, and my riding buddy has committed to joining me for the trip (assuming I join him for Mt. Washington some other year). My goal has always been to get up within that elusive hour, and yet that last 3 minutes really separates the men and the boys. I'm hoping that engaging in power training will be integral to achieving the goal, and would appreciate any info that anyone could possibly provide. I realize this is a long road, and that peaking in October is a bit unusual, although it was what I was once accustomed to before moving to CO. Hopefully training here in CO will help, cardiovascularly, at least.

3) Is Cycling Peaks SW considered practically required for all but the most casual power-trainers? I've been using a Polar 720i for years, and love all the data it provides (mine is very reliable and consistent). I am an altitude junkie, and if it weren't for what I've read of Polar's impending CS600, I'd probably jump on the current Power accessory, but I'm willing to wait for the latest and greatest. Yes, I've read all the threads on Polar vs. PowerTap, but I'm not that dedicated. Really. I swear.

I have Andy Coggan's book on the way, so I'm still not up on the details of power training, but soon will be!

Anyway, sorry for the long ramble. I've learned lot here lately, and I would sincerely appreciate any information, personal experiences, and encouragement that your collective experience(s) could possibly provide!

J\V

Squint · #17 01-24.-2007

Lookout Mountain is about a 20 min climb. I think Deer Creek/High Grade Road (another popular climb in the same area) would be good as the date approaches. That climb is about an hour long so it'd be more similar to Diablo.

PaulMD · #18 01-25.-2007

Hello Jeff, Nice results! 30-40 watts increase of FTP in only one month is coool

I have my 300PT since 7 january 2007. And I am loving it. It rides nicely and I can do good 2 x 20 minute work outs @ L4. At the time that my chain is going to stretch out I will change the crank into a crank with adjustable cranklenght.

I immediately bought Cyclingpeaks WKO+ software and it works great. I have frequently updated my FTP in the software because in the first two weeks it was growing rapidly. First estimated FTP was around 230 - 240 watt.

On sunday I did my last work out (I haven't had time since then) and I did two intervals of 20 minutes @ L4.

T 20:19, AP 264, NP 264, HF 175, C 105
T 24:12, AP 274, NP 275, HF 179, C 104

I estimated my FTP at 260 watt @ 69kg. I hope that I have time and energy to train this evening.

Quote:

Originally Posted by warnerjh

So Paul, how are you liking yours? I'm loving mine, although the chain finally stretched a bit after about 600+ 'miles', and now there is no way in hell I can get the wobble out. I'm having someone out to look at it tomorrow to see what can be done. Other than some minor quirks and crappy software (been spending lots of time in Excel lately), it's great...

------------->

So, an update for those who might be curious as to a new user to power, via the 300PT:

My first power test on the 300PT was a 90-minute suffer-fest, and included Andy's prescribed 30s/1m/5m tests, followed by adding the 20-minute FTP test at the end. Needless to say I was a bit tired and I'm guessing it was about 10% low due to all the peak power work before it:

12/26/06 20-min = 221w (tired, 81.1 Kg)
01/02/07 20-min = 246w (fresh re-test)
01/21/07 20-min = 269.5 (79.5 Kg)

The L4 work is doing it's job, and each 2x20 is getting easier. Here's a chart of my progress (expressed in w/Kg), and includes reference curves for Andy Coggan's maximal power output table for different categories of cyclists (instead of visualizing 'slopes' within his table of w/Kg numbers, you can clearly see how your MMP curve fits into the scheme of things).

Now that I'm nearly one month into training with this 300PT, I'm halfway through 'The Book', yet I have one burning question:

How often do you guys update your Training Levels when you know your FTP has increased? For example, after two weeks my previous midpoint of my L4 might end up being at the high end of L3, due to inevitable adaptation. Do you guys simply stay within those previously defined levels for the entire month of training, or do you gradually (and naturally) let your capabilities for a 20-minute effort dictate your performance for the L4 interval? I'm guessing some of you might increase from 20's to perhaps 30 minute intervals, but I guess I need some guidance on what makes the most sense.

Thanks again for all the help!

-Jeff

J\V · #19 01-27.-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by creekbruin

Warner:

I am lucky enough to live in Walnut Creek, very near to Mt. Diablo (on the South side) and I have done the Mountain Challenge.

Southside Glenn, nice to hear from someone in Wally World! (I used to live right near Shell Ridge) Thanks for the input, and you're quite right about the start line. I'm hoping that people will take pity on us having travelled all the way from Colorado to try to break the hour. Due to the 'mass start' mentality, it's a toss up between trying to get a decent warmup in and sacrificing your place at the start. Oh well...

I love everything about Mt. Diablo as well, it's such a spiritual place for me. I met my wife at the summit (saw her come across the finish line), and two years later (1994) ended up proposing to her (in front of the whole crowd) during the prize/awards ceremonies after the race.

As far as power requirements go, I'm estimating (via AnalyticCycling.com) I'll need between 280 and 288 watts, but I assumed 10.8 mph, as that's the distance from Athenian School, at least based upon my previous ride data.

I can't wait to ride 'her' again...

-Jeff

J\V · #20 01-27.-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squint

Lookout Mountain is about a 20 min climb. I think Deer Creek/High Grade Road (another popular climb in the same area) would be good as the date approaches. That climb is about an hour long so it'd be more similar to Diablo.

Hey Squint,

I'll have to ride Deer Creek, I haven't done that one before. I've been heading up toward Evergreen from Golden lately (before the weather turned for the worse), but it's an inconsistent climb above Buffalo Bill. I'd really like to find a consistent 3000'+ climb that's ridable from to home to truly train at/near FTP.

Thanks for the input.

-Jeff

Squint · #21 01-27.-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by warnerjh

Hey Squint,

I'll have to ride Deer Creek, I haven't done that one before. I've been heading up toward Evergreen from Golden lately (before the weather turned for the worse), but it's an inconsistent climb above Buffalo Bill. I'd really like to find a consistent 3000'+ climb that's ridable from to home to truly train at/near FTP.

Deer Creek/High Grade is really popular. The whole road was repaved with shoulders last fall. Even the downhill side has a shoulder. On weekends in the summer, there are a lot of cars parked at the base of the climb so many people do drive in to ride.

The whole climb is about 3000' and should take around an hour. I don't think you can find a steady climb this long without going further north or west.

PaulMD · #22 03-13.-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by warnerjh

So Paul, how are you liking yours? I'm loving mine, although the chain finally stretched a bit after about 600+ 'miles', and now there is no way in hell I can get the wobble out. I'm having someone out to look at it tomorrow to see what can be done. Other than some minor quirks and crappy software (been spending lots of time in Excel lately), it's great...

Hi Jeff, I wish I had never bought the Pro 300PT. The 1850 dollars is a waste of my money. I could better buy a 500 dollar spinningbike with a 3000 dollar SRM crank because then you can train by power. With a powertap hub in a flywheel you can't because a change in temperature changes the accuracy of the PT and a flywheel has a big change in temperature during a work out...

cPritch67 · #23 03-14.-2007

warner,
one thing that I do for simulated climbing on my PT300 is place a sheet of plywood underneath the unit, propping the front end up many inches. That should help, when you can't get out of the house.

Paulmd,
I'll be looking for your other thread about the heating flywheel impacting the PT's readings.

J\V · #24 03-14.-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulMD

Hi Jeff, I wish I had never bought the Pro 300PT. The 1850 dollars is a waste of my money. I could better buy a 500 dollar spinningbike with a 3000 dollar SRM crank because then you can train by power. With a powertap hub in a flywheel you can't because a change in temperature changes the accuracy of the PT and a flywheel has a big change in temperature during a work out...

As I wrote in your thread, my unit absolutely does not do this, and I'm guessing your PT is defective; it certainly should not drift based upon heat. Stick with it, get the flywheel replaced, and I'm certain you'll love yours every bit as much as we're loving ours.

J\V

jbvcoaching · #25 03-14.-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulMD

Hi Jeff, I wish I had never bought the Pro 300PT. The 1850 dollars is a waste of my money. I could better buy a 500 dollar spinningbike with a 3000 dollar SRM crank because then you can train by power. With a powertap hub in a flywheel you can't because a change in temperature changes the accuracy of the PT and a flywheel has a big change in temperature during a work out...

Not to change the thread, but for $1850 I'd get a PT SL and a Kurt Kinetic Pro "Rock & Roll".

PaulMD · #26 03-14.-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbvcoaching

Not to change the thread, but for $1850 I'd get a PT SL and a Kurt Kinetic Pro "Rock & Roll".

Yeah, but then you don't have a fixed gear spinningbike with a road cycling feeling.

jbvcoaching · #27 03-14.-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulMD

Yeah, but then you don't have a fixed gear spinningbike with a road cycling feeling.

Buy a second PT wheel, a pro hub set up fixed for track use. Swap that in while on the trainer. Now you've also got a track wheel (I presume you ride/race track if having a fixed is important to you).

The 18lb flywheel and "rock & roll" feature ought to handle the "road feel" part.

Or just leave the road bike in one gear on the trainer...

john979 · #28 03-18.-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbvcoaching

Buy a second PT wheel, a pro hub set up fixed for track use. Swap that in while on the trainer. Now you've also got a track wheel (I presume you ride/race track if having a fixed is important to you).

The 18lb flywheel and "rock & roll" feature ought to handle the "road feel" part.

Or just leave the road bike in one gear on the trainer...

Before I purchased the PT300 Pro, I thought about doing such, but I was concerned that the 18 pound flywheel would not provide enough inertia. I know I am not going to be happy until I buy a Velotron.

J\V · #29 03-22.-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squint

Deer Creek/High Grade is really popular. The whole climb is about 3000' and should take around an hour. I don't think you can find a steady climb this long without going further north or west.

Just a quick update for those interested in how the 300PT has impacted my life. This was posted to another forum, but is directly relevant to the Mt.Diablo goal.

Here's a quick synopsis of my power tests since getting the 300PT and it's effects upon my local TT climb: Lookout Mountain here in Golden is about 1250' of climbing in 4.5 miles 'pillar to post', i.e. about 5.4%. It's my local TT climb fitness indicator. My previous personal best on that climb was 29:14 on 07/28/05, in '06 I didn't break my PB, but almost surely could have (by maybe 0:30?) in late December if the weather hadn't turned.

Entries by date (all power data is from 20-min*0.95 method on the 300PT, no power data on bike yet):

[Started using 300PT on 12/26/06]

12/31/06 PTest (20-min*0.95) = 209.7w, 82.4 Kg
01/02/07 re-test (fresh) = 234w, 81.6 Kg
01/09/07 = 238.5w, 81.1 Kg
01/21/07 = 256.4w, 79.5 Kg
01/28/07 = 253.7w, 78.2 Kg
02/05/07 = 27:44 (PB by -1:30), 79.9 Kg [kreuzotter calc = 269w @9.72mph]
02/10/07 = 268.1w, 78.1 Kg [last power test]
02/10/07 = 27:44 (PB by -1:30), 79.9 Kg
03/05/07 = 26:19 (PB by -1:18), 79.0 Kg
03/21/07 = 24:53 (PB by -1:27), 78.2 Kg [kreuzotter calc = 308w @10.87mph]

The calculated 269w (from http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm) on 2/05/07 compares pretty favorably with my last power test, which was 268.1w, 5 days later on 2/10/07. Interesting that they appear to correlate; I really need to do a power test on the 300PT in the next few days to see where I'm at. That thing has changed my life.

So, today's ride pretty much broke what my race-goal was going to be for the 'Pillar-to-Post' race in early May. I guess I need to set a new goal.

My average speed of 10.87 mph is about what I need for the climb up Mt. Diablo (to break an hour), though it's a 3200' climb, so now I need to work on being able to keep this pace longer. Yuk.

Cheers!

-J\V

tanggoman · #30 03-22.-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by warnerjh

As far as Diablo goes, I've spent a lot of hours on that mountain, and can't wait for one more turn. My title of this thread was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, hoping to get the input of both those familiar with Diablo, and others who use the 300PT. It's a long-term investment not intended for any specific goal, but I will certainly put it through its paces trying to attain the 10.8 mph up the mountain, which according to some preliminary estimates on AnalyticCycling.com will require about 285 watts for 60 minutes. I don't know where I stand, but I do know that sounds a bit ugly.

I live just a stone's throw away from Mt Diablo and I have to say since I got my PT late last summer, I have tested my power output, only from Northgate to the Ranger Junction Station (roughly 6.5miles, 8%-12% avg grade), and this route is hella hard if compared to the other side, which is Southgate. From my data last summer the fastest I got was, again, from Northgate to Junction, was around 37min at an average power of ~235W.

I've been slowly building up again to that same output as last year as daddy duties kept me off the bike for most of the quarter this year, but slowly getting there.

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