Frustrated with FTP Progress - Page 2

Maybe, but don't relegate yourself to pack fill just yet
With a quarter century of riding and racing experience I suspect you don't need a lot of help in the bike handling, pack riding, wheel sucking department. I'd strongly suggest you skip the weekend group ride at least every other week and substitute a SST/L4 session on your own. I've got a similar background and when I got my PM last summer I had similar power numbers. I've always done group rides and since they had tough sections I always figured it was good training.

The key thing I look at differently now is how much time I spend completely in a given power level as opposed to what the peaks and long term averages work out to. Group rides often have some really hard minute or so efforts and sometimes a longer bit getting into the three to five minute range. If you're lucky enough to do group rides with sustained climbs(distinct possibility in Colorado) then fine you can get some good solid threshold work at your own pace. But if not it's unlikely you'll stay up in L4 or SST range long enough to really target adaptations to that energy system. Even if your IF works out to .8-.9 if the ride is flat to rolling it's likely you have some hard periods followed by a lot of pack cruising. Maybe the group you ride with rides at just that pace that's right for you to improve your FTP, but that's awfully slim odds.

Anyway, my FTP hovered in the low 200's a year ago (I'm also 46, have raced since the early '80s and although I spent a lot of years in the NorCal 3's I was packfill most of the time) it's at least 285 now and I'm probably due for another test soon since I knocked out over an hour of solid L4 intervals this morning and came home feeling great. The big difference for me is understanding the need to stay "in level" for enough time (3 minutes min. for VO2max, 10 minutes min for L4) and the need to train alone or with one or two compatible team mates.

I was thinking about this thread as I cooled down this morning. I had a real flat L4 workout on Wednesday, I'd bitten off a bit too much with L5 work on Tuesday and had added a few extra miles that day because the guy I was riding with is still focused on miles. I backed down to mid SST and pulled the plug about half an hour early on that L4 session. The next day I got three great hours of L3/SST and felt really strong. A rest day Friday and today I knocked out some of my best 20 minute numbers of the season and felt like I had a bit more in the tank. My point is that it sometimes pays to drop a notch into SST and extend the intervals when the legs feel flat. The other nice thing about a weekend SST/L4 session is it gets me used to a hard weekend day and that's when races typically occur. Tomorrow will be longer and easier, and then it starts all over again with a rest on Monday.

Anyway, don't get discouraged and with your years of experience you might consider skipping the team ride from time to time to work at your own best pace.

Good luck,
Dave

Relegate? How about "aspire to"?

Yes, we've several rides up canyons along the front range that take anywhere from 30-40 min's to well over an hour.
1st hour or so is pretty easy with just a couple of good jumps thrown in along the way. The pace picks up markedly after that.

Thanks. It's certainly reassuring to know that other folks have already done what I'm trying to do. I appreciate your insight.
Again, thanks for the encouragement. Time to get out & ride...

Dave

dkrenik,

Your situations sounds like mine with family and work, I get about the same about of training in in week as you and a lot of mine is on the trainer at 10:00 at night. I also do the Tues/Wed/Thurs then Sat/Sun format.

One thing I noticed from you ealier post is you're doing your 2x20s on the rollers. I found once I was able to get some L4 workouts done on the road this spring my FTP jumped. It seemed no matter how much I tried to work on my FTP on the trainer the last couple of months, I just couldn't seem to do it anymore. Earlier in the year when the weather was bad I could do it but after several months in the basement the motivation wasn't there. Getting out on the road (especially the hills) helped to get my FTP moving north again. I also mixed up my 2x20s with some being more in the 15 minute range and some in the 25 minute range. I was also able to do longer SST rides. I still use the trainer during the week when I can't fit a ride in. L4 on the trainer now tends to be shorter and at a higher level.

I just set new personal bests for my 3 minutes and 12 minute tests.


Oh yeah it's nice to see other humans with FTP in the 200's. After reading this forum for awhile I was starting to think my parents really screwed me over genetically. Everyone seems to have FTP in the 300's or more.

One thing about this thread is that I'm finding more folks who are in, or have been in, the "same boat" as me wrt FTP frustration

I've all but stopped the 2x20 roller work - too monotonous. I do mid to upper L4 work on the road (~45 min TT-type effort) - hasn't done mush for me at this point.

I've been doing most of my VO2/L5 work on hills (I've a few to choose from that let me do 5 min +/- intervals). As noted earlier, I've had good response there.
Interesting that you mention this. I'm going to do L4 work on my rollers today (way too windy) and am thinking about how I might mix it up more. Something like 1x20, 1x10, 2x5 and bump the wattage up on each change in duration.
Cool. I'm trying to "bury" myself this week as I have travel most of next week. I'll be looking to do some testing when I return.

Amen brother!

In the same boat here age-wise, experience-wise and wattage-wise, but I'm not frustrated yet. I've only just got a power meter and I was obliged earlier this year to take two months off of training due to injury. Near as I can tell my FTP is somewhere between 235 and 250.

You say you respond well to VO2 max work, and so do I. Since we seem to have so many other similarities, I wonder if you, like me, tend not to go hard enough in your threshold intervals? Looking back at my pre-power meter days it's apparent that VO2 was about the only thing I really trained, for the simple reason that it's most natural for me. My nascent mean maximal power curve already starts to confirm that I'm best at sprinting and short efforts. In the past, I just figured that since 3 to 5 min. intervals are really difficult but not impossible, they were all I needed to do. I didn't even know 20 min. intervals were physically possible, much less why anyone would torture himself doing them (no surprise that I hated time trials with a passion). As a result of all this, even though I now understand the benefits of threshold training, I still find these long intervals to be excruciatingly hard mentally, and I tend to undercook them. In fact, I have yet to make a satisfactory FTP test. Does any of this sound familiar?

I'd be interested in advise for overcoming my threshold training weaknesses. First thing I'm going to try is reducing the interval length down to 10 minutes or so, since that still trains the right stuff, if I understand correctly. Then gradually build them up longer and longer.

I'd actually strongly recommend going the OTHER way... make them a hair easier. Take it all the way to the bottom of the "sweet spot" at 84% of FTP. Pick a wattage that you are confident that you could do for an hour for sure. Then start doing 2x30 or 3x20 or 1x60 or even the dreaded 1x90. Once you get some success and learn how they should feel (really, they shouldn't be excruciating), then work back towards pushing the wattage a bit.

Worked for me.

Absolutely. This is similar to advice I've received from my original post and my initial impression is "this s**t works!" While I only have an hour or so during the week, on the weekend I can occasionally skip the team ride and "do my own thing" for a couple of hours on Sat & Sun. This being mostly higher end L3 work.

I expect to do some testing late next week. This week I'm trying to dig the proverbial "deep hole" because I've travel next week. I'll keep y'all posted.

Dave

Please see my response to shawndoggy. I know it seems counterintuitive. It "makes sense" to hit it harder when stuff ain't going the way you want it to. I've only just recently found (at the encouragement of daveryanwyoming, rmur, and others) that by backing off some and lengthening it out a bit you get a whole lot more for FTP.

I know that high L3 work won't win you the sprint. The thing is, when you can't even hang on to the main group there are other parts of your training to address


Dave

Here's a question: while various posters are improving their FTP and setting new PBs in their power testing, are you seeing any change in your race results? The reason I ask is that, at least here in NJ, the age group races do not follow a "bell curve distribution," meaning that as riders age, anyone not competitive drops out. I race in the 55+ group, and (a) almost everyone is at least a cat3, and (b) in our typical field of 20-25 riders, at least 5 are current or former national champions, or were on various Olympic teams in their youth. My general comment to my wife is: "well, I couldn't beat "x" when I was 19, foolish to think that somehow I would beat him now." So in my experience, the 3 years of power training (with a coach) was interesting, the FTP went up, but my race placings (i.e. top 5 placings) never really happened.

Well first of all I'd have to defer to those whose FTP has improved.

The same scenario exists here in Colorado in the age group categories. Hell, I raced against Alexi Grewal in one of my first 35+ races. That's when I figured that I might be better off staying in the 4's here in CO.

Now that I'm 45+ the scenario hasn't really changed - we've all become older (go figure). I now gravitate towards TT's and road races - no crits. I no longer have the "bravado" I employed in my youth (I've grown to like my skin). With TT's I can measure success as improvement in time and/or wattage - things that I can control. I can't control what other people do or don't do.

Dave

If the strongest guy always won, we'd call it running. In other words, it's not always the guy with the biggest FTP who wins the race. Boosting FTP is only one factor among many.

That said, yeah, after a heaping helping of SST all winter long, I've increased FTP from 4w/K to about 4.4w/K and results this year are exceeding expectations.

I started using a powermeter in 1999, and based on the data it provided, altered my training to focus more on functional threshold power from late 2000 on. Since then, I have won approximately two-thirds of all road races that I have entered (usually solo, since I'm a poor sprinter), and have finished on the podium in all but a handful of them. During this time, I have never missed being in any winning breakaway, except when it has contained a teammate.

My wife is a pursuiter, not a road racer or TTer, but she, too, changed the focus of her training in late 2001 to place more emphasis on increasing her metabolic fitness (a.k.a., functional threshold power). After doing so, she lowered her personal best 3 km time by a significant margin, and won elite nationals in part by trouncing this woman in the semi-finals:

http://www.erinmirabella.com/

YM, of course, MV...but the fact is that, outside of a few track events, "it's an aerobic sport, dammit!", such that an adequately-high metabolic fitness is a requirement if you wish to be successful.

I've concentrated on building FTP all winter and haven't felt stronger since i started back racing from 10yrs away from the sport (FTP is also my weakness so this probably has more of an effect on a rider like me that other... train your weaknesses and let you strength take care of themselves and all that...)... Dr. Coggan is right... it is primarily an endurance sport so FTP is a dominant element... improve FTP and the odds of your overall cycling performance going up, go up markedly.

i like to say that FTP is your ticket to play... once you have a sufficiently high FTP you are able to make decisions and utilize your good AnCap, NMP, climbing ability, and also better than average FTP is a plus too and finally tactics... being a more rounded rider allows you more options...

FTP gets you on the chess board, but once on the board do you want to be able to make move like a pawn or a queen (AnCap, NMP, climbing ability, high FTP)... but even though you can move like a queen you still need to be smart or all your abilities will go for not.

here's an example... last year i did a TT and my minute man caught me and passed me and put god know's how much time into me.. think probably ~3min over 15k ... same rider the next week club crit (6 corners, technical) lasted all of 2 laps after a wicked fast start (50-55km on the staights for the 1st few laps... ~6kms)... my high AnCap saved me in that situation... so FTP is good but if you are one dimentional, tactics can easily be devised to defeat you... that being said no matter what raising your FTP can only be a good thing... but you need to work on other areas too and especially if those other areas are your weakness.. but FTP is the bedrock apon which everything else is built.. without a sufficient FTP you are just hanging on and will not even have the opportunity to even use your other abilities.

and
Thanks for your insight gentlemen. I agree with your viewpoint on the importance and place of FTP development. In addition to what's been previously recommended (L3 & SST), how have you dealt with plateaus in your FTP development?

i think conventional wisdom is to start training more at the top end of the SST range... in the winter when i was working on uping my FTP i found that alternating 2 -3 x 10min days followed by 2-3x20min was good (did some 2x30s too)... you do the 10mins harder than the 20's but the after a while you start doing the 20s as hard as you are doing the 10s.. but the 10s at the same intensity start feeling easy so that goes up and then you start doing your 20s harder to match and it just sort of feeds on it's self... and i'm not talking about just burying yourself.. just at the same RPE you are able to do more... but the higher intensity 10min days allowed me anyway to carry that same higher intensity into the 20min days... i don't think if i was just doing the 20s i would have uped the intensity as much... kinda rambling but i think you get what i'm saying?

also as someone with just mediocre FTP but good AnCap.. i've found that for the highest ave watts i need to ramp my watts... start slow and end with much higher watts... did a bit of experimenting this winter and found that i can really lay rubber to pavement about 10-15min (maybe even longer) but then i start to blow (i'm talking up to a 50W swing)... this 10 to 15min must come at the end of the interval though.. if i try it at the end i just blow up... if i try to keep a constant wattage of my ave watts of the ramped one, i blow up... if i ramp it i always get a much higher ave watts.. don't know if that will work for you or not... need to do some more experiments... maybe it's that i need 10mins at below my FTP to get going and maybe why i'm better at 40km TTs and road races and really suck at 15km TTs.. haven't done a 40k in a while so who knows?

have to be careful though, i have found that when i start increasing volume (as able to ride ouside) my tested FTP goes down at least initially and then after a while starts to climb up again (don't really do formal tests... just use my training regime as my test bed..) but that doesn't mean my FTP has really gone down... it just means that given my current volume my FTP as tested has gone down. i now have the confidence to know that if i did a a rest it will be right back where it was if not higher... my FTP as tested in the winter inside with much lower volume is ~20W higher than when i get outside and start putting on the miles even though i'm actually much fitter outside... the other thing is that i don't really do TTs so my only concern is that my FTP is addequate.. and right now it is, so anything above where it is now is just gravy... so i work it but really with the intension of keeping it where it is or bumping it up slightly.. so for me anyway an FTP plateau is not really a bad thing... an FTP drop would be a bad thing... right now my FTP is starting to approach what it was inside even with the increased volume that to what i was doing inside so... so no worrys and my performance in races is good so no worries...