Another TT/power pacing question

flapsupcleanup · #1 04-14.-2009

Well, I've searched the forums here and on wattage till my eyes blur and figured out that of course, in a hilly TT you should push (a bit) on the uphills and backoff (a bit) on the downhills. Makes perfect sense. The obvious question then, is how much to push and how much to backoff?? I'm going to do my first 40k soon and that will be the question.

I'm sure there is no exact answer but I was practicing yesterday and on the climbs I went at 105% and the descents at 95% (this is of my avg power I think I can sustain for the 40k). Problem is that 105% on a climb seems like I am going very slowly.

So is that 5% variation too little? Or should I climb at whatever power ends up hurting a bit at the top, pretty much using PE?

daveryanwyoming · #2 04-14.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by flapsupcleanup

Well, I've searched the forums here and on wattage till my eyes blur and figured out that of course, in a hilly TT you should push (a bit) on the uphills and backoff (a bit) on the downhills. Makes perfect sense. The obvious question then, is how much to push and how much to backoff?? I'm going to do my first 40k soon and that will be the question.

I'm sure there is no exact answer but I was practicing yesterday and on the climbs I went at 105% and the descents at 95% (this is of my avg power I think I can sustain for the 40k). Problem is that 105% on a climb seems like I am going very slowly.

So is that 5% variation too little? Or should I climb at whatever power ends up hurting a bit at the top, pretty much using PE?

Where's Alex when ya need him

FWIW, if it's your first 40k I wouldn't stress over theoretical variable power pacing. I'd focus heavily on your start and getting your power where you want it early and then focus on late race focus and laying it all on the road. Sure, fine tuning with exactly the right efforts through the rollers might buy you a few seconds but most long time trials are lost through more basic errors like starting too hard or losing concentration before the finish. Have you worked on long training intervals from a standing start? Have you worked on a fast efficient turnaround?

Dialing in your variable power pacing strategy is great if everything else is dialed in, but don't lose sight of the forest for the trees....

Good luck and let us know how it goes,
-Dave

flapsupcleanup · #3 04-14.-2009

Thanks Dave,

Yep, I've been practicing those things you mentioned. In fact, I feel pretty good about the whole process with the exception of how hard to hit the hills. Going up a short hill at FTP seems crazy slow. OTOH I still haven't ridden this particular course but from what I can gather the climbs are somewhat more than "rollers" and somewhat less than "hills". Whatever that means! Anyhoo, 3 weeks to go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming

Where's Alex when ya need him

FWIW, if it's your first 40k I wouldn't stress over theoretical variable power pacing. I'd focus heavily on your start and getting your power where you want it early and then focus on late race focus and laying it all on the road. Sure, fine tuning with exactly the right efforts through the rollers might buy you a few seconds but most long time trials are lost through more basic errors like starting too hard or losing concentration before the finish. Have you worked on long training intervals from a standing start? Have you worked on a fast efficient turnaround?

Dialing in your variable power pacing strategy is great if everything else is dialed in, but don't lose sight of the forest for the trees....

Good luck and let us know how it goes,
-Dave

Piotr · #4 04-14.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by flapsupcleanup

Thanks Dave,

Yep, I've been practicing those things you mentioned. In fact, I feel pretty good about the whole process with the exception of how hard to hit the hills. Going up a short hill at FTP seems crazy slow. OTOH I still haven't ridden this particular course but from what I can gather the climbs are somewhat more than "rollers" and somewhat less than "hills". Whatever that means! Anyhoo, 3 weeks to go.

I think your plan is sensible. I don't doubt that going up a short hill at FTP seems "crazy slow" at first, but you let us know how that 105% FTP feels on the LAST hill or mile, OK?

Alex Simmons · #5 04-14.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming

Where's Alex when ya need him

Asleep

Just don't start too hard and then let body work it out. You will naturally go harder up the hills and less so down the other side anyway.

Then the pacing can be looked at in hind sight as a learning exercise.

swampy1970 · #6 04-15.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by flapsupcleanup

Thanks Dave,

Yep, I've been practicing those things you mentioned. In fact, I feel pretty good about the whole process with the exception of how hard to hit the hills. Going up a short hill at FTP seems crazy slow. OTOH I still haven't ridden this particular course but from what I can gather the climbs are somewhat more than "rollers" and somewhat less than "hills". Whatever that means! Anyhoo, 3 weeks to go.

Sometimes a change in position can effect your power output and this could be why it feels too easy when going up hills. Sitting up on the tops opens up the angle between your body and thighs and can lead to a higher power output. Do something simple like stick your bike on a trainer and stuff it in whatever gear it takes to make 75rpm a big effort and ride on the tops. Can you produce more power (and hold it) than you could at 90rpm in a smaller gear while on the drops at threshold? A long hill with an even grade works too...

Short hills - how short? Are we talking freeway overpass or 10 minute hill?

Good luck with the race.

frenchyge · #7 04-15.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by flapsupcleanup

So is that 5% variation too little? Or should I climb at whatever power ends up hurting a bit at the top, pretty much using PE?

The *optimal* amount of variation depends upon the gradient and length of each uphill and downhill segment across the entire course, but from a big picture I'd say 5% is probably too little, unless the climbs are very long. Riding by feel, with some moderation for not blowing yourself up on the climbs, nor coasting on the descents, will get you most of the way towards good "variable pacing." Beyond that, (as suggested above) some post-ride analysis of the entire file as compared to the elevation/wind conditions will reveal whether your big picture pacing was appropriate for the course (ie, greater average power expended during the uphill/upwind legs of the course, regardless of whether they occur early or late in the ride).

flapsupcleanup · #8 04-15.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by frenchyge

The *optimal* amount of variation depends upon the gradient and length of each uphill and downhill segment across the entire course, but from a big picture I'd say 5% is probably too little, unless the climbs are very long. Riding by feel, with some moderation for not blowing yourself up on the climbs, nor coasting on the descents, will get you most of the way towards good "variable pacing." Beyond that, (as suggested above) some post-ride analysis of the entire file as compared to the elevation/wind conditions will reveal whether your big picture pacing was appropriate for the course (ie, greater average power expended during the uphill/upwind legs of the course, regardless of whether they occur early or late in the ride).

Thanks all,

Yeah, I've been thinking the +/- 5% was not enough also. My inclination is mostly to make sure I dont hit the hills too hard early in the ride. I'm sure that will be the temptation so I will need discipline there.

I don't know how long the hills are but I dont think there are any longer than 3 minutes. One buddy who rode it last year did say he ran out of gears on one of them so apparently a few are pretty steep.

frenchyge · #9 04-15.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by flapsupcleanup

Yeah, I've been thinking the +/- 5% was not enough also. My inclination is mostly to make sure I dont hit the hills too hard early in the ride. I'm sure that will be the temptation so I will need discipline there.

I don't know how long the hills are but I dont think there are any longer than 3 minutes. One buddy who rode it last year did say he ran out of gears on one of them so apparently a few are pretty steep.

If you can make an opportunity to ride the course before the race, that'd do more to improve your pacing then anything we can say here.

Rather than shooting for +/- X% of FTP on climbs/descents, I'd suggest that your pacing goal should be to avoid riding hill #1 at FTP+X% and then barely being able to produce FTP on a similar hill later on. The climb/descent power will kinda take care of itself if you're metering your effort for the whole course.

rmur17 · #10 04-15.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by flapsupcleanup

Well, I've searched the forums here and on wattage till my eyes blur and figured out that of course, in a hilly TT you should push (a bit) on the uphills and backoff (a bit) on the downhills. Makes perfect sense. The obvious question then, is how much to push and how much to backoff?? I'm going to do my first 40k soon and that will be the question.

I'm sure there is no exact answer but I was practicing yesterday and on the climbs I went at 105% and the descents at 95% (this is of my avg power I think I can sustain for the 40k). Problem is that 105% on a climb seems like I am going very slowly.

So is that 5% variation too little? Or should I climb at whatever power ends up hurting a bit at the top, pretty much using PE?

you mention it's your 1st 40k ... what general experience do you have with TT'ng? Getting a 40 'right' your 1st time out would be a miracle!

swampy1970 · #11 04-15.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmur17

you mention it's your 1st 40k ... what general experience do you have with TT'ng? Getting a 40 'right' your 1st time out would be a miracle!

Define 'right'. LOL

There's nothing that feels remotely 'right' about getting the required effort spot on.

flapsupcleanup · #12 04-16.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmur17

you mention it's your 1st 40k ... what general experience do you have with TT'ng? Getting a 40 'right' your 1st time out would be a miracle!

Pretty much none. Two short TT's. Nothing like 40K. Lots of racing and hard club rides. OTOH, I know my FTP pretty close and have been riding (and training) with power for several years.

Frenchy, yep the plan is to pre-ride the thing. Agreed, that will be critical.

rmur17 · #13 04-16.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by swampy1970

Define 'right'. LOL

There's nothing that feels remotely 'right' about getting the required effort spot on.

I think Chris Boardman describes it quite well in his book -- though the exact quote doesn't come to mind .. something along the lines of "right on the edge where it's not hurting badly but you just can't go any faster". I reckon he knew a thing or two about tt'ng and getting the most o/o himself

Once you cross the line though, it should hurt like hell.

Only three wks to our 1st sched TT of the year. I'm getting nervous already!

rmur17 · #14 04-16.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by flapsupcleanup

Pretty much none. Two short TT's. Nothing like 40K. Lots of racing and hard club rides. OTOH, I know my FTP pretty close and have been riding (and training) with power for several years.

Frenchy, yep the plan is to pre-ride the thing. Agreed, that will be critical.

if you have lots of racing & hard club ride experience then treat it like a long solo break

. Really though if you have plenty of experience 'riding hard' over variable terrain - you should not have a lot of trouble ... as long as you don't go out too hard. That's easier said than done and I reckon the #1 TT advantage of a PM over PE alone.

good luck with it.

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