Threshold Power Intervals on the trainer - Page 2

acoggan · #16 06-10.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by grahamspringett

So it's physiologically ok to take a brief break during a long interval? Say 10 seconds?

Sure. The time constant for changes in metabolism is ~30 s, so as long as you keep the breaks shorter than that it is as if your body doesn't even know that you have stopped exercising. You do, though, have to rely on the overall average power (or the normalized power) to measure the intensity (which means working a bit harder during the 'on' periods if you take frequent breaks).

Atsic · #17 06-12.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by frost

Not exactly. One cycle is 5 minutes so that:
- 30 sec @ 120-130% (not really paid too much attention to exact watts but clearly a surge of hard. Outdoors I would probably replace it with a bit shorter out of the saddle sprint if thinking about criterium)
- 2,5 min ~90%
- 1 min 105-110 % (once again more by feeling, a shortish TT pace)
- 1 min ~90%
Start all over and repeat x times. Usually 2x25-30min with 5 minutes break in between. At around 40min of total time the 2,5min "recovery" in between starts to feel really short

.

I did it! The work like explayned by you and i have to say that finally i can do it! I can do intervals of 20 minutes or longer on this way. Ok is hard, terribly, each time that i have to start a cycle and to sprint at 120-130 % of FTP (expecially at the end of each macro-cycle) is really really painful but at least i can do this effort. Mentally is more easy, to be attentive all the time to change rythm. Really not bad! At the end of the workout i added 5 X 1 minute at 100 of FTP at 110-115 RPM with 1 minute between each of resting.
Thanks to everybody for the advices!!!

Atsic · #18 06-12.-2009

Ah! I forgot! Just another question: usually how many time per week you do work to the FTP?
I usually alternate 2/3 times per week to the FTP to slow ride and if i feel good with the legs i do 1-2 times per week work to Tempo level or to the sweet spot.

SolarEnergy · #19 06-12.-2009

Also Atsic, it's good to keep in mind that FTP isn't the only component involved in having success at Crits. Part of smart training periodization is to factor in training facilities related constraint in building your plan. Your personal strengths and weaknesses also count. If your weaknesses happen to be easily exercised indoor, then that counts.

While FTP is important component , for some people it is so easier to push it to its full potential when riding outdoor (2x20 and sweet spot) that they tend to 'maintain' it during winter to later push it to new peaks (aiming at pbs so to speak) during summer, outdoor. It all depends on when exactly you need to be able to set the streets on fire.

I personally find that it doesn't take that long for me to get back to little lower than previous year's figures (although they aren't very high... that could play a role).

In this context, even if short interval training may not be the best way to fully develop your FTP, could still be a very smart option planning wise.

Atsic · #20 06-12.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by SolarEnergy

Also Atsic, it's good to keep in mind that FTP isn't the only component involved in having success at Crits. Part of smart training periodization is to factor in training facilities related constraint in building your plan. Your personal strengths and weaknesses also count. If your weaknesses happen to be easily exercised indoor, then that counts.

While FTP is important component , for some people it is so easier to push it to its full potential when riding outdoor (2x20 and sweet spot) that they tend to 'maintain' it during winter to later push it to new peaks (aiming at pbs so to speak) during summer, outdoor. It all depends on when exactly you need to be able to set the streets on fire.

I personally find that it doesn't take that long for me to get back to little lower than previous year's figures (although they aren't very high... that could play a role).

In this context, even if short interval training may not be the best way to fully develop your FTP, could still be a very smart option planning wise.

I know this. And i'm fully agree with you. For sure the FTP is not the only one thing to have success in the crits, but i think that in a season plan has its own role.
I did a plan where my physical condition is growing step by step, and also the training load is growing up with method. First the endurance (with some tempo rides), after tempo rides and sweet spots (of course not forgeting the endurance too), now threshold workout wih sweet spot. What next? I think for sure i will add some Vo2 max work, and i will plan a specific program only for this level of training, and in the crtis is also important the anaerobic power another level that i will have in consideration. All this trying of course to don't forget all what did in past, so for example even there is a period for the training of the Vo2Max, in the resting day i will do some long training but not hard to train also the endurance.

Hope that this is the right way of the periodisation.

In my mind there is to have my best condition between Augoust and Sempteber. Considering that at the end of june i will start to race again, i have all the time to prepare well. I hope!!!

Advices are all the time appreciated.

PS. Call me Antonio.

SolarEnergy · #21 06-13.-2009

Antonio, you're on the right track in my opinion.

Maybe one last thing I'd like to add.

Earlier in the thread, Dr.Coggan made a smart and interesting reference to how swimmers make extensive use of short intervals for developing most fitness components. This is very true. Even level 2 is often trained on intervals. (for what it's worth, I don't call these pure intervals but rather broken distances. 60x100m isn't seen as 60 bouts of 100m, but rather like 6km broken into chunks of 100m). Typical rest would be 5s or less in L2 context, 5-10s for L3, and I'd say 20s or less for L4.

One thing I'd like to add is that while they train on short intervals, these are not entirely "Time based". Like Dr.Coggan said, the working portion of these intervals is "Distance based".

In cycling world, that could translate into something like this:
20 x 2kilo (wind trainer kilos here) off 3min
which means that every 3 minute you need to book 2 kilos. If you can book 'em in 2min45sec, then that leaves you with 15sec rest.

If your wind trainer/computer allows for easily resetting distance then you may try both approaches (pure time based or distance based) and stick what you like best.

Atsic · #22 06-14.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by SolarEnergy

Antonio, you're on the right track in my opinion.

Maybe one last thing I'd like to add.

Earlier in the thread, Dr.Coggan made a smart and interesting reference to how swimmers make extensive use of short intervals for developing most fitness components. This is very true. Even level 2 is often trained on intervals. (for what it's worth, I don't call these pure intervals but rather broken distances. 60x100m isn't seen as 60 bouts of 100m, but rather like 6km broken into chunks of 100m). Typical rest would be 5s or less in L2 context, 5-10s for L3, and I'd say 20s or less for L4.

One thing I'd like to add is that while they train on short intervals, these are not entirely "Time based". Like Dr.Coggan said, the working portion of these intervals is "Distance based".

In cycling world, that could translate into something like this:
20 x 2kilo (wind trainer kilos here) off 3min
which means that every 3 minute you need to book 2 kilos. If you can book 'em in 2min45sec, then that leaves you with 15sec rest.

If your wind trainer/computer allows for easily resetting distance then you may try both approaches (pure time based or distance based) and stick what you like best.

But we have to consider that the swimmers are not able to mesure the power output of that moment. I mean, on the cyclism we have the opportunity with some devices to mesure exactly how many power and energy we are producing. This devices let us to know exactly phisiologically which level we are training. For istance, if for the FTP the minimum is 20 minutes of workout we cannot base it on the distance but we are obliged to use the time, because to train the level X we need at least Y number of minutes at the Z Watt.

If my ideas are wrong i'll be thankful if you explain me better what i didn't understud.

Atsic · #23 06-14.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by acoggan

Sure. The time constant for changes in metabolism is ~30 s, so as long as you keep the breaks shorter than that it is as if your body doesn't even know that you have stopped exercising. You do, though, have to rely on the overall average power (or the normalized power) to measure the intensity (which means working a bit harder during the 'on' periods if you take frequent breaks).

A question for you. If the time costant for changes in metabolism is around 30 seconds, a VO2Max work has the same value if i do intevals like 10 x 30 seconds at 100% of Vo2max with a recover of 30 seconds? Working on this way (recovery of 30 sec) if my interpretation is good the body doesnt understand the change of metabolism right?

daveryanwyoming · #24 06-14.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atsic

A question for you. If the time costant for changes in metabolism is around 30 seconds, a VO2Max work has the same value if i do intevals like 10 x 30 seconds at 100% of Vo2max with a recover of 30 seconds? Working on this way (recovery of 30 sec) if my interpretation is good the body doesnt understand the change of metabolism right?

You've missed the part about training stress being the average power of such a set. Your body wouldn't know you've completely stopped exercising with 30 second rests, but your training stress would be half of your typical VO2 Max power if you go 30 seconds at that power and rest for 30 seconds.

To make that work you'll need to go twice your normal VO2 Max training power for 30 seconds, then rest for 30 seconds or some more reasonable combination that averages to the appropriate power. Thirty seconds is also on the long side of rests as it represents one full half life of adaptation and you've partially recovered. Try to keep the rests shorter than a full half life, try 10 to 15 seconds to minimize the recovery.

-Dave

SolarEnergy · #25 06-15.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atsic

For istance, if for the FTP the minimum is 20 minutes of workout we cannot base it on the distance but we are obliged to use the time, because to train the level X we need at least Y number of minutes at the Z Watt.

Antonio, I never actually do 20min intervals outdoor. I do 3 laps of 4.5k on a racing circuit. These laps take roughly 20 min to complete. My powertap records the result. That circuit has some characteristics (a little slope here, a 90deg turn there etc). Some find it easier to sustain a demanding effort by using these "references" as a motivating factor.

For instance, during these intervals my inner voice goes like: ok now I am very tired, but hey, the "big three" is coming, after that it's the little bridge followed by the 2k stretch and then I am done. So let us not slow down. And if by any chance I meet a pace line of riders going about my speed or slightly over, then forget it. I go after them just like a dog and probably record a great result.

With duration based intervals, my inner voice goes like: what?? only 8min done and 12 to go?? (then what felt like 5 min after) what?? only 9min done 11 to go??

Since you're training with a Fortius, finding for instance a path (you have so many to choose from) that takes whatever the duration you need to book might feel like time goes quicker, and you might actually be able to complete those long intervals.

As for swimmers, (for what it's worth for this discussion) power based measurement would not be as useful as some might think. It doesn't factor in economy. Matter of fact, the number one reason why swimmers break their long distances into shorter chunks is probably to preserve optimal economy, which can only be monitored using speed based monitoring (to stay practical). Therefore most coaches use m/sec to calibrate swim workouts. Conversion from m/sec to power would only be required if need be to monitor multi-sport / cross-training activities using Training Peaks's wko+ for instance.

rmur17 · #26 06-15.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by acoggan

Sure. The time constant for changes in metabolism is ~30 s, so as long as you keep the breaks shorter than that it is as if your body doesn't even know that you have stopped exercising. You do, though, have to rely on the overall average power (or the normalized power) to measure the intensity (which means working a bit harder during the 'on' periods if you take frequent breaks).

Breaks are evil - once you start 'em, you're on a slippery slope

(then again, I used to be known as 1-speed. Now I'm not sure what they call me behind my back. Besides FAT!

)

frost · #27 06-15.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmur17

Breaks are evil - once you start 'em, you're on a slippery slope

(then again, I used to be known as 1-speed. Now I'm not sure what they call me behind my back. Besides FAT!

)

Words of wisdom

**jhuskey** · #28 06-15.-2009

I use all the tricks on a trainer including wireless headphones for the tv, big fan etc.. I have noted that when I get tired and bored on the trainer I stop.
I have also noted that when I get tired riding on the road I could be as much as 20 miles from home and therein lies my motivation.

Atsic · #29 06-15.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by SolarEnergy

Antonio, I never actually do 20min intervals outdoor. I do 3 laps of 4.5k on a racing circuit. These laps take roughly 20 min to complete. My powertap records the result. That circuit has some characteristics (a little slope here, a 90deg turn there etc). Some find it easier to sustain a demanding effort by using these "references" as a motivating factor.

For instance, during these intervals my inner voice goes like: ok now I am very tired, but hey, the "big three" is coming, after that it's the little bridge followed by the 2k stretch and then I am done. So let us not slow down. And if by any chance I meet a pace line of riders going about my speed or slightly over, then forget it. I go after them just like a dog and probably record a great result.

With duration based intervals, my inner voice goes like: what?? only 8min done and 12 to go?? (then what felt like 5 min after) what?? only 9min done 11 to go??

Since you're training with a Fortius, finding for instance a path (you have so many to choose from) that takes whatever the duration you need to book might feel like time goes quicker, and you might actually be able to complete those long intervals.

As for swimmers, (for what it's worth for this discussion) power based measurement would not be as useful as some might think. It doesn't factor in economy. Matter of fact, the number one reason why swimmers break their long distances into shorter chunks is probably to preserve optimal economy, which can only be monitored using speed based monitoring (to stay practical). Therefore most coaches use m/sec to calibrate swim workouts. Conversion from m/sec to power would only be required if need be to monitor multi-sport / cross-training activities using Training Peaks's wko+ for instance.

Ok ok, now i got it! We were talking about 2 different things, me about what is the best way to make a "perfect" workout, and you what pratically do our best when we're on the bike. I'm agree with you anyway.
I'm using a lot the catalyst because with it i can easly control all the parameters, but you just gave me another idea. It can be really useful to use also the 3d part of the fortius, and I mean the virtual reality that can help everybody to sustain better the strong effort of a 20 minutes work!

Atsic · #30 06-15.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhuskey

I use all the tricks on a trainer including wireless headphones for the tv, big fan etc.. I have noted that when I get tired and bored on the trainer I stop.
I have also noted that when I get tired riding on the road I could be as much as 20 miles from home and therein lies my motivation.

It's normal i think. for everybody is like this. For me for istance, when i have to do the distance if i'm not alone and in a group ride the time is flying. Boring like the trainer there is nothing else!

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