FTP & 5-min power relationship - Page 2

Well, it would seem that you have a sprinter's power profile. Although you can expect to see improvement in your FTP, you'll probably see improvement in your 5m/1m/5sec powers as well. In fact, your anaerobic powers are likely to improve more readily since this is where your talents lie.

I've been training with power for the last 3 seasons (I have a total of 10 intermittent years of experience), and my FTP lies 5 rows below my 5 min power, which is my highest. When I train for threshold improvements, my 5 min maximal power seems to rise a notch as well (it's still mostly an aerobic effort afterall).

Here's a Wattage discussion (free membership required) about the benefits of extending time at certain wattage rather than raising power for a certain time interval for FTP improvement. Someone mentions that extending time seems to work better for "explosive" riders (sprinters), which has been my experience, rather than the latter method. Have a read.

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Thank you for your reply. Would you do me the courtesy of a followup based on my response here please?

No denying the points you raise here as stated. I do not look at my training plan as prescriptive by any stretch, as in do X of these, 5x/week at 8:30 etc etc.

As you say for a newbie, almost any training mix, with sufficient volume will result in notable improvements. Again, no debate.

However I would like to engage you on one particular point.

That being what is best for a newbie...........one who has developed a good idea of what events she will be targeting and participating and knows success depends on long duration aerobic ability.

Training time is limited as we all know. Then again, the mix of training also affects recovery and overall volume.

Would you replace 120 minutes of L3 or 60 minutes of solid L4 work - with a typical 5x5 vo2max workout?

Not only this, but keeping in mind the likely extra recovery will probably reduce overall CTL/volume.

Adding more detail: CTL just hitting 70 now (and climbing) on 10 hours/week of training. TSB is way negative, -30 to -45 as expected in a build phase.

Again this is for a newbie who has specific goals, those being excellent results in crits and road races. Remember that womens racing starts at cat 4 and that unlike men's 5, it isn't a place strictly for new racers as there are apparently many veteran women racers who stay in cat 4 for a long time, maybe indefinetly, and are quite fit.

More and more I am enjoying my L3/L4/SST training and I would not say my training mix is anything special but it seems to be doing the job and have seen my FT increase by 50%+ in 3 months. Not to mention losing a whole lot of kilograms :-)

Not at all saying I know more, because I do not. What I am asking is if you were the coach, what would you suggest?

Piotr, I will be getting on the list to reference the thread you suggested.

Interesting observation for me is that since I have greatly upped the overall volume of training, I have seen my sprint numbers decrease even though I train them 1x/week.

Should also say I have been losing weight the entire time and maybe some muscle perhaps but my weight loss has been at a sensible pace, I get plenty of protein, and I do not starve myself.

Or maybe neuromuscular power suffers when TSB is quite low and I am regularly in the -30 to -45 range presently. Or it could be that I am not much of a fast twitch cyclist and am just another all rounder who needs to train up their 5/60 minute capability.

Like you say I expect 5 min power to increase as I continue to do L4 work. THis is one reason I am also tempted to not do any targeted L5 sessions.

The idea of extending duration of L4's more so than increasing wattage is appealing. The 1 x 60 trainer workouts I have started to do are kinda my way of increasing duration without necessarily bumping up the wattage so much. Still, I know it is L4 work.

Also might you comment on my question to frenchyge as well? The one concerning :
Would you replace 120 minutes of L3 or 60 minutes of solid L4 work - with a typical 5x5 vo2max workout given my present circumstances/goals?

Regarding your suppressed sprint numbers, I think you answered your own question. You upped the volume and your TSB is low. I'm confident that that's the sole reason for your relative lack of sprint. FYI, my TSB goes below -30 once or twice a year for a day or two as I generally don't grow CTL more than 3TSS/day/week. Be careful that you don't overcook yourself too quickly. Some people are more tolerant of fatigue than others of course so YMMV.

Regarding the L5 training I would hold off for now. VO2max are very hard and very taxing and right now there's no reason to ruin a good thing that you have going. Last February, after 3 months of mostly indoor SST work (and a few team rides), I started doing 5x5's @ 10W higher than the best session of the previous season. The following week it was 15W higher. Since I haven't done any VO2max intervals for months, I expressed surprise and Andy Coggan commented something to the effect of "You shouldn't be [surprised]". So increasing your FTP through SST will also increase your power at VO2max. This is called the push-up approach to increasing your aerobic fitness. It is also more sustainable year-round as opposed to the L5 pull-up approach that will yield quicker results, but at a greater cost, while not sustainable through a long season. I use L5 only for peaking, a few weeks before important races. And even then, sparringly (again, YMMV).

You also have to think in terms of continuous improvement over several years and SST/L4 is the way to do it. Here's some more reading that may help you understand how and why it happens:

http://home.hia.no/~stephens/exphys.htm
Mitochondria: The Aerobic Engines
mitochondria functions and research

Articles like these have greatly helped my understanding of what is needed to increase my cycling performance over the long term.

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I'm not a coach and don't play one on TV, but this part jumped out at me. It appears you've got a great thing going and are enjoying yourself to boot, so.... no, I wouldn't change a thing. My previous comments were more directed towards a formulaic mindset of not training X until you improve by 3 rows in Y, etc. If you're enjoying yourself and seeing good improvement, then go with it. But, if you get bored, or start to flatten out and get frustrated, then don't be afraid to switch things up.

This early for spring races? Probably not, but I wouldn't be afraid to pound out an L5 set once in a while after a tough day at work or just to see where my fitness is. Personally, I used to like L5 sets 'cause surviving the surge/recover race feel made me feel like a steely-eyed killer. That intensity also made me a little harder to live with at home. If you approach a spring crit like an L5 workout, you'll have a fun crit.

I'd have to know someone pretty well before I would suggest they change what's really working well for them to try something that worked well for me, but if you enjoyed the L5 sets as well as the SST, then I don't think you'd go wrong to throw them in a few times a month during the winter for a change-up.

Yes.

Very well said!

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"It takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place."

Gentlemen, thanks for your answers. Much wisdom to glean from your comments and much appreciated

Definitely watching the TSB and CTL ramp rate as you suggest. I have lowered the intensity of a training day if I felt my body wasn't up to it. Still what I am seeing is that, I know it is a popular saying here, but the more I am on the bike training, the more my body is able/fit to train. Sort of a feedback loop, a positive one if you ask me.

The SST/L4 feels much as you describe: very sustainable. I could be wrong but I kinda think in training that you can burn these sort of 'mental matches'. Push yourself too, too hard too often, especially in a build phase, and I feel like it can leave you a bit 'cooked' - if that makes sense? So I try to strike a balance between days where I push hard, for things like regular testing days, and others where I set more comfortable, sustainable goals (like doing 60 minutes at maybe 88-92% instead of trying for a higher value)

Good links, thanks. I am learning a lot reading here with the training info but it seems pretty clear that to be really aware, you have to understand some of the physiology. The training makes more sense when you learn how the system, your body, actually works.




Not a coach? Maybe not on TV but you can probably play one here on cyclingforums :-) :-)

Being serious now though, the training goes really great. I am starting to do stuff on the bike that I thought was way out of my league. Not a lot you know, but just enough that I am thinking, wow, maybe I can do this.

L5 work = steely-eyed killer? Yeah no kidding, look out at home

Guess I kind of like testing regularly, more so than L5 specifically. Alex Simmons mentioned doing regular tests in response to a question I posed and now that I do them, I enjoy them as it tells me exactly where I am in terms of power.

I am willing to try a different training mix if it would give me better results, believe me. It is hard to say how I am doing relative to other newbie/newish riders. For me I feel like I am doing pretty good.

Curious about one thing. I just reached one of my power goals and was shocked but it has made me super confident. Now I am thinking of a more outlandish and crazy goal.

What does it take to get to FT = 300watts?

Anything special or different in the training mix? Does L5 and/or L6 become required part of training to get to 300? Or will a steady diet of SST/L4 with high (80? 90? 100?) CTL do the trick?

I'm not a petite little thing so maybe FT = 300 would not be so impressive as it would be for some other ladies to achieve, but in my mind, for me, it would be pretty darn incredible!