Surges in races/group rides + crit training - Page 2

That's a pretty nasty course - with that nice little hill and all; and a damn hard race considering the duration.

My weekly Tuesday night crit course has a somewhat similar profile but the hill is more gradual such that I don't have to get out of the saddle unless there is a really hard surge or prime. Usually it's 8.5-9w/kg (750-800w for me being a heavy guy and all) for about 30secs, then a short flat stretch and then downhill for about 20 secs.

Needless to say, I don't fare so well in the finale as I do on my Thursday night crit which is totally flat. Tuesday has an uphill finish and my relative power at the end puts me in the middle of the pack. Thursday's flat finish has me in the top 3 almost every week.

I've done some Tabata intervals in the past, but I've found just doing L6 1min. intervals (with limited recovery between reps) covers all the bases for the crits I compete in. Maybe if my crits were more technical I would do more micro-intervals as the techy crits require that aggressive acceleration out of the corners regardless if you're in the front or back. The crits around here are a little more sedate.

L5 work, as mentioned by others, is also a major component of my training - although regulars to this forum know how much I just LOVE doing L5 intervals; well with ibuprofen anyway...

Good luck (not really luck, but you know what I mean) with your training...

Yes.

Don't discount standing starts although I never like doing them on a road bike.

And remember, you don't need to be the fastest/smartest sprinter of the bunch, just the fastest/smartest in your break-away group

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Ok. Tried to be a good grasshopper and follow up with some more research.

Here's what I found, from Alex himself:

Sounds from what Coach Alex said there, a few years ago it seems, is that I best make standing starts a big part of my sprint training for crits! Though he says 'do all as Dave suggests'.


Dave explains the different types of sprint focus very concisely here.

One thing I am unclear on though. I found some posts from Dr. Andrew Coggan where he more or less says skills are best practiced as a whole - not piecemeal. Kind of like the best way to learn to serve in tennis isn't by practicing tossing the ball by itself or footwork, but by doing the whole thing at once.

So if I understand that right, it would mean you practice sprinting in the situations you will race in (kind of specificity) rather than breaking it down in parts (like strength, speed, repeatability).

Maybe I have misunderstood Dr. Coggan (or Alex or Dave or all )

Well, I can't speak for Andy or Alex, but in terms of the stuff I posted I'd say all three of those are valuable skills and each is a complete skill that should be practiced in a sport specific way.

IOW, I can't think of a good way to do a standing start/peak speed sprint/repeatability acceleration drill. The standing starts and peak speed race sprints should be done with full focus and near complete recovery between individual efforts. The repeatability NM acceleration work is best done in a complete and sport specific way such as Bill Black's Hour of Power work or other sustained microinterval efforts that emphasize repeated high power bursts and recovery at race pace.

I guess I don't see a contradiction between the varying types of NM work and specificity as opposed to someone urging weight room work for the low velocity high force work, plyometrics for the acceleration aspects or maybe one legged uphill cycling drills to build leg strength.

Maybe I don't understand your confusion, but identifying a few varieties of bike specific NM work doesn't mean they're overly broken down and don't represent the fully integrated skill. It's just that NM work isn't expressed in just one way for all bike racing situations.

BTW, I don't even remember posting that thread or having those thoughts, but I agree with them and was probably steered towards those thoughts by someone else. There's that regurgitating info thing again

-Dave

Ahhh, maybe that's the problem. I didn't describe sprint work, I described various forms of neuromuscular work of which sprinting is one form.

-Dave

Makes sense because different types of sprints or maybe better to say 'L7 efforts', will emphasize different traits.


The repeatability NM acceleration work is best done in a complete and sport specific way such as Bill Black's Hour of Power work or other sustained microinterval efforts that emphasize repeated high power bursts and recovery at race pace.

This puts the 'practice the skill in a complete manner' into good perspective. Doing it on the bike in a relevant context, instead of in a gym, hoping to simulate body angles, speeds, forces, etc.

I'll take a shot at this one.

Standing starts - could address a strength limitation, and though maybe rare for men, being a woman this could be relevant for me. Plus I bet it helps when you have to sprint while overgeared and something tells me other racers aren't going to conveniently put off their jumps until you've shifted into your preferred gear.

Speed work - this one looks obvious. I mean to sprint you have to be able to spin your legs fast enough to generate maximal power. Unlike trackies though, you don't have to spin to 150 given a fully geared bike. Whether you do this off a ramp, with a tailwind, leadout, or motorpaced is irrelevant, just build speed.

Repeatability - you explained this one and I interpret it more as a sort of speed-endurance trait. That handy graph Alex put up of a crit race of his shows how often you need to be able to accelerate/burst.

Ha ha, it was a while ago. Got it off a thread called 'standing starts, sprints' (or vice versa).

LOL.

Dave's regurgitating info = passing on acquired knowledge = wisdom by most definitions

but there are skill elements to sprinting and there are physiological adaptions that aid in sprinting.. the two don't necessarily have to be done together.. i don't mean to speak for Dr. Coggan but it appears he refered to doing the "skills" as a whole and the whole skill is best practiced as a whole and not broken down into elements...

the skill element are for sure best practiced in as real to life situations as possible... practice races, city sign sprints on group rides, 2,3... up sprints with friends etc.. there is a lot to practice in sprinting.. first learning what type of sprinter you are, do i have a good acceleration, do i have good top end, do i have good power to weight.. these might help you decide when and where to open up your sprint.. practicing relaxing and not tightening up in close sprints, getting to the front while expending the least amount of energy in a big group sprint, holding your position on that final lap and last corner, getting comfortable with bumping shoulder and being in really tight quarters at really high speed, bike handling.. etc, etc... all these things you will never learn from doing sprint workouts by yourself... if you are out of position or don't open your sprint at the time to suite your abilities, or are tight nervous or hesitate you will never be able to take advantage of the physiological adaptations you have done in training...

likewise, there are tonnes of skill involved in crit riding... you can use sooo much less energy by just riding a crit properly and doing little tricks to mitigate accelerations that it's almost like cheating... a really good crit rider really doesn't even need to even ride in the top 1/3 and can actually ride on the back of the group (at least after all the chaff has been burned off of course ) just by timing his/her entry and exit out of corners properly, but you have to be very skilled to do this.

the most important and effective training you can do to improve your crit riding is a) threshold training and b) riding crits... simply riding crits will give you that L4, L5, L6 workout all rolled into one and you will be learning crit riding technique at the same time... if you have a club that puts on crits in your area riding as many of them as you can will be your best bet to improve your crit riding... you may want to do a little bit of L5 and L6 training before riding your first crits but from there you'ed be hard pressed to find a better L5, L6 workout than simply riding crits..

i find that standing sprints (i do them on a slight incline and as well) are good for exaggerating pedaling technique and help to warm up muscles... i do 2-3 before i do my rolling start sprints... usually do on slight downhill to get speed up without expending too much energy as would be the case in a race.. but rolling start are what you want to be doing to improve your sprint in RRs and crits.. if i'm short on time i cut out the standing starts sprints..