Sprint power on trainer vs. road - Page 2

frenchyge · #16 10-22.-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by velomanct

I can do 220rpms on the road in my granny gear, but I can't ride a sub 11.8 200m. See the difference? It's all about high sustained power at high cadences (140-160rpms), for 200m sprints.

Oh yeah. As an ~1100w guy, I'm fully aware of the difference in power.

Your downhill sprints are using gravity to offset the high power requirement, and I was just thinking that 'simulating' a sprint, but in a lower gear, might do the same thing for one's form/technique.

Quote:

Originally Posted by velomanct

Road sprinters don't go much above ~125rpms during flat sprints, because they got gears, and they are standing not seated. Don't start comparing road sprints to track sprints, they are way different.

Sure. Not trying to compare, I'm just a roadie looking for some sprint advice that might help me out. You sound very knowledgeable/experienced in the ways of sprinting, can you give any tips or drills that might help with sprinting form/technique? I know I also need to work on my max power output if I ever want to see 40mph.

Thanks.

velomanct · #17 10-22.-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by frenchyge

Oh yeah. As an ~1100w guy, I'm fully aware of the difference in power.

Your downhill sprints are using gravity to offset the high power requirement, and I was just thinking that 'simulating' a sprint, but in a lower gear, might do the same thing for one's form/technique.

Sure. Not trying to compare, I'm just a roadie looking for some sprint advice that might help me out. You sound very knowledgeable/experienced in the ways of sprinting, can you give any tips or drills that might help with sprinting form/technique? I know I also need to work on my max power output if I ever want to see 40mph.

Thanks.

Do you see my point? I said that stating numbers is useless unless you state the conditions and duration of the sprint. 1100w? for how long? seated, standing, big gear, small gear, uphill, flat? It really does make a big difference.
1100w average for the final 12 seconds of a 200m 'track' sprint is very good. 1100w peak for one second is not very good. But then again, what's your weight?

Just so you know, peak power has very little to do with top speed, especially if you are not givin a leadout. If you want to work on your top speed, I would suggest a good mix sprints. It would be a good idea to do your training with some friends, it will make it a lot more fun and you can push yourself harder.
I would do everything from hill sprints to downhill sprints to small ring sprints, seated sprints, standing starts. Your ultimate goal is raise the average power you can do for a 15-20 second sprint. Don't do too much work on short jumps, it won't help you that much, all though it is nice to have a good jump.

I did this week of training for working on my acceleration, and got improvements with it.
mon- off
tues- 1hr, six 6 second sprints in my 39x21, alternating standing/seated. followed by plyometrics and heavy weights.
wed- 1hr easy
thurs- 1hr, six 6 second sprints in a big gear (two gears harder than I would normally use), alternate standing/seated. followed by a different rep/set scheme with heavy weights on different lifts.
fri- off or easy
sat- set personal bests. no kidding, my jump improved a lot. I was so in tune with my sprint that I could tell imediately if I was hitting a new PB peak wattage during the sprint. After some time dedicating my training to this, it really felt good to just go balls out. My fast twitch muscles were primed well.
Now, I haven't done too much of this training lately, and I can feel I am weaker from the long roadie efforts.

Another thing you can add in once you get into sprint training is some explosive weight lifts, like clean pulls. Do these a few hours before your bike workout. It really primes the nervous system. This is what lead to my best peak numbers this past summer. I felt so damn strong during those first sprints, it was amazing. Too bad it wears off as you fatigue.
I wouldn't worry about doing these 'pre-ride' lifts untill you have been sprint training for at least 3 months.
Also, during this time I did zero endurance work. The only thing 'endurance' I did was being on my bike for an hour or two. All the riding inbetween sprints, I was at like 110bpm.

I wish I had some riding buddies I could train with, no one around here wants to sprint

As for form/technique, I personally don't pay much attention to it. During sprints you need to have 100% concentration on killing the pedals. Sprinting requires a lot of aggression. If you are lazy or just not energized you won't outsprint that 10lb dog. I really think the best way to train sprints if with someone who is at least your ability level. If you can't find anyone, just try to keep up with traffic after a red light, works for me! Want to work on kilo power? On a side road, when a car passes, see how long you can keep them in sight

yeh that stuff hurts.

As for me, I am going to continue doing my downhill sprints at this time. Check out my videos in the bike cafe forum. 60mph is a lot more fun than 38.

http://www.cyclingforums.com/t-292701-15-2.html
Horton Hill is sick. Dropped 400ft elevation in less than 30 seconds.

If that road were straight and smooth, I would have been well into the 60s.

frenchyge · #18 10-22.-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by velomanct

As for me, I am going to continue doing my downhill sprints at this time. Check out my videos in the bike cafe forum. 60mph is a lot more fun than 38.

http://www.cyclingforums.com/t-292701-15-2.html
Horton Hill is sick. Dropped 400ft elevation in less than 30 seconds.

If that road were straight and smooth, I would have been well into the 60s.

Jeez, you've got some ballz going that fast down those roads. Too many soccer moms and football dads in SUVs around here to try a stunt like that.

Thanks for the tips.

Billsworld · #19 10-23.-2005

What your saying is what I am discovering . I wasnt really comparing road to track sprinting, I would however like to see how fast a good track guy would go on the street just for a point of reference........... Wouldnt a flat road be more like a track?? I have noticed that alot of guys do big gear slow cadence rides/sprints to build power. Kind of like weight traing on the bike .That doesnt make sense to me at all, but there are some real fast guys that do it. FYI the guys in NH that are racing on the banked go cart track said they are open to Sat. night instead of wed. Ill be checking it out next season. Thanks BP

Quote:

Originally Posted by velomanct

small chainring sprints are fine for developing JUST leg speed. but there is a difference between 160rpms in the small ring and 160rpms in your sprint gear - power. Sprinting downhills would have the simular effect of doing 200m sprints, the difference like I said above, is that it's a lot more FUN. That is a big factor for me.

I can do 220rpms on the road in my granny gear, but I can't ride a sub 11.8 200m. See the difference? It's all about high sustained power at high cadences (140-160rpms), for 200m sprints.

Road sprinters don't go much above ~125rpms during flat sprints, because they got gears, and they are standing not seated. Don't start comparing road sprints to track sprints, they are way different.
As for sprinting at high cadences on the track, it's always in the saddle so there is very little pulling on the bars, and it's not an issue. But even on a road bike, it's possible to ride at 160+rpms out of the saddle, although its very inefficient.

jeff828 · #20 10-23.-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billsworld

I have noticed that alot of guys do big gear slow cadence rides/sprints to build power. Kind of like weight traing on the bike .That doesnt make sense to me at all, but there are some real fast guys that do it.BP

I have started doing big gear slow cadence work myself and it DOES work, started last year and it definitly increased my aerobic & cruise speed. Look at it this way, if you spin a 39x16 at 100rpm for a mile, then you ride the same mile in a 53x14 at 80rpm, which one do you think will build more muscle strength or puts more strain on the muscle. Theres very little resistance when spinning.

Or ride certain loop for 1 hour in 39x17 at 100rpm, Then ride the same course for an hour in 53x15 at 17-19mph only, dont hammer it. Tell me which workout tired your legs out, try it for real as a test.

I did 53x17 at 17-19mph only, for a season, rode totally aerobic, just let time take its toll. Started with an hour, now I can ride it for 3-4 hours. On the smaller grades i just let the cadence drop a little more, i just rode it, did not let it get to were your fighting the gear or get anywhere close to threshold.

Im a natural sprinter came from bmx, favorite gear to sprint 53x16, or when my cadence is 100-110 can crank out 150rpms, usually get a big jump on the guys starting in 53x14,13. If i am going to spin out i always have the option to then shift to bigger gear. It doesnt take as much muscle to snap a lighter gear.

whoawhoa · #21 10-23.-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff828

I have started doing big gear slow cadence work myself and it DOES work, started last year and it definitly increased my aerobic & cruise speed. Look at it this way, if you spin a 39x16 at 100rpm for a mile, then you ride the same mile in a 53x14 at 80rpm, which one do you think will build more muscle strength or puts more strain on the muscle. Theres very little resistance when spinning.

Or ride certain loop for 1 hour in 39x17 at 100rpm, Then ride the same course for an hour in 53x15 at 17-19mph only, dont hammer it. Tell me which workout tired your legs out, try it for real as a test.

I did 53x17 at 17-19mph only, for a season, rode totally aerobic, just let time take its toll. Started with an hour, now I can ride it for 3-4 hours. On the smaller grades i just let the cadence drop a little more, i just rode it, did not let it get to were your fighting the gear or get anywhere close to threshold.

Im a natural sprinter came from bmx, favorite gear to sprint 53x16, or when my cadence is 100-110 can crank out 150rpms, usually get a big jump on the guys starting in 53x14,13. If i am going to spin out i always have the option to then shift to bigger gear. It doesnt take as much muscle to snap a lighter gear.

Have you read the "gyming to improve fitness" thread and all the others on strength? Even if big-gear training did make you stronger, it would not help and would probably harm endurance cycling performance.

jeff828 · #22 10-23.-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by whoawhoa

Have you read the "gyming to improve fitness" thread and all the others on strength? Even if big-gear training did make you stronger, it would not help and would probably harm endurance cycling performance.

I didnt read gyming to improve fitness, but I will.

Billsworld · #23 10-23.-2005

Hey your a young guy with a bit of talent...Might want to ease up on those 60mph down hills . Live to fight another day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by velomanct

Do you see my point? I said that stating numbers is useless unless you state the conditions and duration of the sprint. 1100w? for how long? seated, standing, big gear, small gear, uphill, flat? It really does make a big difference.
1100w average for the final 12 seconds of a 200m 'track' sprint is very good. 1100w peak for one second is not very good. But then again, what's your weight?

Just so you know, peak power has very little to do with top speed, especially if you are not givin a leadout. If you want to work on your top speed, I would suggest a good mix sprints. It would be a good idea to do your training with some friends, it will make it a lot more fun and you can push yourself harder.
I would do everything from hill sprints to downhill sprints to small ring sprints, seated sprints, standing starts. Your ultimate goal is raise the average power you can do for a 15-20 second sprint. Don't do too much work on short jumps, it won't help you that much, all though it is nice to have a good jump.

I did this week of training for working on my acceleration, and got improvements with it.
mon- off
tues- 1hr, six 6 second sprints in my 39x21, alternating standing/seated. followed by plyometrics and heavy weights.
wed- 1hr easy
thurs- 1hr, six 6 second sprints in a big gear (two gears harder than I would normally use), alternate standing/seated. followed by a different rep/set scheme with heavy weights on different lifts.
fri- off or easy
sat- set personal bests. no kidding, my jump improved a lot. I was so in tune with my sprint that I could tell imediately if I was hitting a new PB peak wattage during the sprint. After some time dedicating my training to this, it really felt good to just go balls out. My fast twitch muscles were primed well.
Now, I haven't done too much of this training lately, and I can feel I am weaker from the long roadie efforts.

Another thing you can add in once you get into sprint training is some explosive weight lifts, like clean pulls. Do these a few hours before your bike workout. It really primes the nervous system. This is what lead to my best peak numbers this past summer. I felt so damn strong during those first sprints, it was amazing. Too bad it wears off as you fatigue.
I wouldn't worry about doing these 'pre-ride' lifts untill you have been sprint training for at least 3 months.
Also, during this time I did zero endurance work. The only thing 'endurance' I did was being on my bike for an hour or two. All the riding inbetween sprints, I was at like 110bpm.

I wish I had some riding buddies I could train with, no one around here wants to sprint

As for form/technique, I personally don't pay much attention to it. During sprints you need to have 100% concentration on killing the pedals. Sprinting requires a lot of aggression. If you are lazy or just not energized you won't outsprint that 10lb dog. I really think the best way to train sprints if with someone who is at least your ability level. If you can't find anyone, just try to keep up with traffic after a red light, works for me! Want to work on kilo power? On a side road, when a car passes, see how long you can keep them in sight

yeh that stuff hurts.

As for me, I am going to continue doing my downhill sprints at this time. Check out my videos in the bike cafe forum. 60mph is a lot more fun than 38.

http://www.cyclingforums.com/t-292701-15-2.html
Horton Hill is sick. Dropped 400ft elevation in less than 30 seconds.

If that road were straight and smooth, I would have been well into the 60s.

Billsworld · #24 10-23.-2005

Hey your a young guy with a bit of talent...Might want to ease up on those 60mph down hills . Live to fight another day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by velomanct

Do you see my point? I said that stating numbers is useless unless you state the conditions and duration of the sprint. 1100w? for how long? seated, standing, big gear, small gear, uphill, flat? It really does make a big difference.
1100w average for the final 12 seconds of a 200m 'track' sprint is very good. 1100w peak for one second is not very good. But then again, what's your weight?

Just so you know, peak power has very little to do with top speed, especially if you are not givin a leadout. If you want to work on your top speed, I would suggest a good mix sprints. It would be a good idea to do your training with some friends, it will make it a lot more fun and you can push yourself harder.
I would do everything from hill sprints to downhill sprints to small ring sprints, seated sprints, standing starts. Your ultimate goal is raise the average power you can do for a 15-20 second sprint. Don't do too much work on short jumps, it won't help you that much, all though it is nice to have a good jump.

I did this week of training for working on my acceleration, and got improvements with it.
mon- off
tues- 1hr, six 6 second sprints in my 39x21, alternating standing/seated. followed by plyometrics and heavy weights.
wed- 1hr easy
thurs- 1hr, six 6 second sprints in a big gear (two gears harder than I would normally use), alternate standing/seated. followed by a different rep/set scheme with heavy weights on different lifts.
fri- off or easy
sat- set personal bests. no kidding, my jump improved a lot. I was so in tune with my sprint that I could tell imediately if I was hitting a new PB peak wattage during the sprint. After some time dedicating my training to this, it really felt good to just go balls out. My fast twitch muscles were primed well.
Now, I haven't done too much of this training lately, and I can feel I am weaker from the long roadie efforts.

Another thing you can add in once you get into sprint training is some explosive weight lifts, like clean pulls. Do these a few hours before your bike workout. It really primes the nervous system. This is what lead to my best peak numbers this past summer. I felt so damn strong during those first sprints, it was amazing. Too bad it wears off as you fatigue.
I wouldn't worry about doing these 'pre-ride' lifts untill you have been sprint training for at least 3 months.
Also, during this time I did zero endurance work. The only thing 'endurance' I did was being on my bike for an hour or two. All the riding inbetween sprints, I was at like 110bpm.

I wish I had some riding buddies I could train with, no one around here wants to sprint

As for form/technique, I personally don't pay much attention to it. During sprints you need to have 100% concentration on killing the pedals. Sprinting requires a lot of aggression. If you are lazy or just not energized you won't outsprint that 10lb dog. I really think the best way to train sprints if with someone who is at least your ability level. If you can't find anyone, just try to keep up with traffic after a red light, works for me! Want to work on kilo power? On a side road, when a car passes, see how long you can keep them in sight

yeh that stuff hurts.

As for me, I am going to continue doing my downhill sprints at this time. Check out my videos in the bike cafe forum. 60mph is a lot more fun than 38.

http://www.cyclingforums.com/t-292701-15-2.html
Horton Hill is sick. Dropped 400ft elevation in less than 30 seconds.

If that road were straight and smooth, I would have been well into the 60s.

Billsworld · #25 10-23.-2005

Thank you. My lovely wife is a Brit. from Manchester. I had contacted a group here alredy, but I am going to listen to what they say first. I look around and see many athletes and guys in the gym trying to be what they are not. Good example would be a skinny ectomorph killing himself in the gym to get big. I would love to know if I have the ability to get the speed I am looking for. Cheers BP

Quote:

Originally Posted by ric_stern/RST

Bill, feel free to give me a shout -- i've coached world class 200-m and 1-km TT riders,

cheers
ric

Billsworld · #26 10-23.-2005

I am going to mix in a little big gear sprints and ignore the cadence. I used to powerlift, squat around 600...405x6 no belt or wraps . DL 575 , bench 365. I want to bring that to the pedals. Thats why I am confused why I need that typ of training, but as I said before, it seems like the better sprinters do some training this way. BMX....seen Brian Lopes ??. He pedals so fast

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff828

I have started doing big gear slow cadence work myself and it DOES work, started last year and it definitly increased my aerobic & cruise speed. Look at it this way, if you spin a 39x16 at 100rpm for a mile, then you ride the same mile in a 53x14 at 80rpm, which one do you think will build more muscle strength or puts more strain on the muscle. Theres very little resistance when spinning.

Or ride certain loop for 1 hour in 39x17 at 100rpm, Then ride the same course for an hour in 53x15 at 17-19mph only, dont hammer it. Tell me which workout tired your legs out, try it for real as a test.

I did 53x17 at 17-19mph only, for a season, rode totally aerobic, just let time take its toll. Started with an hour, now I can ride it for 3-4 hours. On the smaller grades i just let the cadence drop a little more, i just rode it, did not let it get to were your fighting the gear or get anywhere close to threshold.

Im a natural sprinter came from bmx, favorite gear to sprint 53x16, or when my cadence is 100-110 can crank out 150rpms, usually get a big jump on the guys starting in 53x14,13. If i am going to spin out i always have the option to then shift to bigger gear. It doesnt take as much muscle to snap a lighter gear.

ric_stern/RST · #27 10-24.-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billsworld

Thank you. My lovely wife is a Brit. from Manchester. I had contacted a group here alredy, but I am going to listen to what they say first. I look around and see many athletes and guys in the gym trying to be what they are not. Good example would be a skinny ectomorph killing himself in the gym to get big. I would love to know if I have the ability to get the speed I am looking for. Cheers BP

interestingly, perhaps (?), i'm also from manchester!

make sure the others have worked with sprinters before. it's very different training to endurance riders.

cheers
ric

jeff828 · #28 10-24.-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billsworld

BMX....seen Brian Lopes ??. He pedals so fast

Yes Im well aware of Lopes, I was racing at the same time he was doing BMX, I think he is a couple years younger. Contacted him 2 years ago because his he was going to be at the Atlanta,GA Nationals.

Anyway, he did a 200m Road Sprint at Redlands Bicycle Classic against all the top road sprinters in the country and got 2nd. Goes to show that sometimes the ability to accelerate real fast is better than the big gear mashers. Heres the article www.navpro.com/news-2000/pr_030700.asp

jeff828 · #29 10-24.-2005

My opinion is that in crits the higher cadence is better so you can get the quicker acceleration out of the last corner, compared to the guy winding up a 53x12,13. In road races its not as effective since there is a long straight to the finish where the speed is already 30mph or more. I its better to practice both maybe.

velomanct · #30 10-24.-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff828

I have started doing big gear slow cadence work myself and it DOES work, started last year and it definitly increased my aerobic & cruise speed. Look at it this way, if you spin a 39x16 at 100rpm for a mile, then you ride the same mile in a 53x14 at 80rpm, which one do you think will build more muscle strength or puts more strain on the muscle. Theres very little resistance when spinning.

Or ride certain loop for 1 hour in 39x17 at 100rpm, Then ride the same course for an hour in 53x15 at 17-19mph only, dont hammer it. Tell me which workout tired your legs out, try it for real as a test.

I did 53x17 at 17-19mph only, for a season, rode totally aerobic, just let time take its toll. Started with an hour, now I can ride it for 3-4 hours. On the smaller grades i just let the cadence drop a little more, i just rode it, did not let it get to were your fighting the gear or get anywhere close to threshold.

Im a natural sprinter came from bmx, favorite gear to sprint 53x16, or when my cadence is 100-110 can crank out 150rpms, usually get a big jump on the guys starting in 53x14,13. If i am going to spin out i always have the option to then shift to bigger gear. It doesnt take as much muscle to snap a lighter gear.

Any type of effort that lasts an hour is not going to positively affect sprinting ability. In other words, you are saying that a long time trial will boost leg strength and sprinting ability if done in a big gear? It makes no sense, but if it works for you then ok.

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