I think I hate Pro cycling

I don't know what to say. I am reading through these posts and i just realized that we all sound like idiots. We are trying to argue amongst ourselves who doped and who didn't. it Doesn't really matter. Nobody one the Tour this year. Has that ever happened before? I wonder how far down in the GC the testing would have to go to find a real cyclist. I want to say that its just a few riders but it is obviously more.

I think that the long standing logic stating that the average guy could never ride for pro teams is no longer true. I think anyone with a little talent and poor self control can cocktail themselves into the limelight.

I am going to stick to all the other sports that don't dope......ohhh wait there are none. I guess that leaves chess.

I am not so sure about that.

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Didn't Karpov burn a UA for Ginkgo Biloba in '99 while trying to make a comeback bid against Kasparov?

You read my post and shed that single tear so you know how I feel about the sport right now. We do sound like a right bunch of muppets, arguing over how many beers Landis might have had to drink to test positive for drugs. How many beers does each of us have to drink to realise the truth that our sport has a rotten core? The only top 10 rider from this year's Tour I am sure did not dope is Cyril Dessel and he only got there because of his breakaway.

Hmmm.. how are you so sure Dessel didn't dope?

Only cure for this malaise; LIFETIME bans for all dpoers adn retrospective loss of ALL palmares.

until they do that UCI etc are NOT serious.

If for example landos ( and I only use him as an example) is found guilty expunge his name from the roll of honour and never let him ride professionally again. If ullrich is found guilty remove his wins etc etc. DESPERATE TIMES MEAN DESPERATE MEASURES.

I totally agree, stop messing around with them if they're found to be guilty of doping.

I agree with both of you. It is the only way. I feel sorry for the guy that gets boned by it but it would almost never happen.

I don't get the hypocrisy of pro cyclists. They will wait for a fellow rider who crashed or got a flat tire, but they will also dope. It doesn't make sense.

Honor among thieves?!

How about financial penalties too?

Exactly. Nothing in his palmares would suggest he would be capable of limiting his losses so effectively in the mountains. He's a druggie like the rest of them. In fact, anyone who merits any mention for even a modest achievement in cycling is a doper, because we all know that no one can achieve anything in the sport without doping. And those who underachieve can be definitively labeled dopers as well, because it's obvious that their underperformance demonstrates they must have been doping previously when they were doing well. Those who are performing consistently well but not spectacularly are definitely doping because they are obviously trying to blend in with the rest of the peloton and not call attention to themselves. That means the good, the bad, and the mediocre are all corrupt and cheating, which leads me to reiterate my plea:

Let them all dope. If they're all such rotten bastards as to collectively lie to our faces, let them damage their own bodies for our amusement.

All well and good, but if "they all dope", which seems to be the mantra these days, then why penalize Landis, Ullrich, Basso or anyone else so harshly for simply being unlucky? The penalties you suggest are based on arbitrary results. You won't ensure a clean race, and I doubt you'll deter even one cyclist from doping if he knows his chances of testing positive are 1 in 180 or so.