Extensive drug dossier on Hamilton and Riis from 2003 - named in Operation Puerto - Page 3

...and this is different from the "Landis is innocent!!!!!" thread ?

To be honest Tyler and more so Landis don't appear to understand the implications of what they are doing.... the Landis affair has left 30 people without a job, young riders who can’t get a contract, the sport in tatters with a sullied reputation and one man dead (may not be related but the timing suggests it might have had an impact)......

....it only takes a few dots to be joined; Hamilton on the gear with CSC moves to Phonak and steps up his programme, hears Landis is having some problems at Postal so gets him on board at Phonak (stated in text) then introduces him to Fuentes, does well in TdG, PN, Fuentes scandel breaks Landis gets off the gear and has a shocker at DL and at the start of Tour then when all the chips are down.... well we know the rest..... doing the gear doesn’t just impact the rider it impacts everyone….

Problem is with that attitude EVERYONE is a doper. Every rider in the peloton. You can never prove your clean. Every negative test is just more evidence that you've successfully cheated the system.

Is that your position. Every single rider is doped up to high heaven? If not, then your being a hypocrite.

WBT: Stop blaming the riders exclusively. Its the culture of doping promoted by the team management that's to blame. You really think that the riders aren't actively or tacitly encouraged. Its nonsense to dump on the riders and cut Riis and Co. total slack.

WBT- I know talking to you intelligently is pretty worthless but perhaps you might remember all of the other Phonak doping cases. Landid did not put anyone out of a job, his was just the final one. Blame is spread to all of them...unless you have an agenda.

I do agree with you... Landis wasn't what made Phonak (the team not the sponsor) disband... it was the string of doping offences and yes I agree we can't just blame the riders... in all walks of life we are presented with moments when something could be considered cheating.... at work I take taxi's all the time and bill them to clients when its not client work.. its not morally right but you get away with so you keep doing it... same goes here.... an injection of vitamins for recovery turns into cortisone, then testosterone then EPO... The point I was trying to make that all the cyclists not just Landis need to understand the implications of what they are doing... even if the team is pressurizing them they need to stand firm..... if I was Landis I prefer to finish 11th than win and fail a doping test... his life is now in ruins and if he finished 11th and didn't use the gear then he could come back bigger and better next year...

Hmmm, interesting change of course after saying the Landis affair is what put 30 people out of work.

Not really.... what I was saying that HE knew the implications of what he was doing, he knew that after Ullrich, Basso et al were kicked off the Tour what a positive test could do.... yet he still went ahead and did it ? What did he expect ? Liberty pulled their sponsorship and he knew Andy Riis was busting a gut trying to get iShares to sign up and that they signed up under the proviso of “no drugs”.... he knew that 30+ people would lose their jobs but he still went ahead and did it... in 2 years time he better not come anywhere near the peleton because there are a lot of riders and staff (if they find new jobs) who want to tell him what they think..... to be frank I don’t think Landis will be welcome back in the peleton in any shape or form…

Right. As Bob Roll said when he was here in Utah a few weeks back, you can't disprove a negative sample. Yet there are many that want to say, you're not really negative, you just didn't get caught....

L

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Thanks for proving how clueless you are...again. Once again you go back to "it was Landis fault that 30+ people are out of work", which in your last post you went away from. Then you claim landis won't be wanted anywhere...like Virenque and many others? LOL. Typical WBT.

Thank-you. I will add that in 2006 things are a LOT different than in 1999 post Festina. The tide has turned. Landis will be ostracised.
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Doping on a level of sophistication as the dossier indicates couldn't have been just the rider. You think a strange person with a refrigerated container, blood heating equipment, and a transfusion setup can come and go, and not be noticed by other team members? Let's say they did it offsite - think the team doctor wouldn't notice the marks the transfusion IV needle leaves behind? It's a pretty large needle. Think the team doctor wouldn't notice the sudden leap in hematocrit? Oh, that just happened... yeah, right.

It's easy to demonize the riders. But, this is their job, and when the boss starts pushing them in a direction, it's either follow along or you don't ride. With four doping convictions in three years, Phonak's management wasn't pushing the riders to dope? That's how the low budget teams keep up with the heavy hitters, because it's the lower budget teams that get caught multiple times - Kelme, Phonak, Liberty... The very low budget Jean Delatour team got Laurent Roux on a solo breakaway during the Alpe d'Huez 2001 duel between Lance and Jan. Turns out, Roux was doped to the gills when he did it.

Everyone involved in cycling has been turning a blind eye to doping, making it easy to do. Both the UCI and WADA ignored valid tests for transfusing one's own blood, and as we've seen with the testosterone issue, the initial test is fairly easy to stay clear of. Institute a reticulocyte test for transfusions, and dump the T/E test in favor of a CI test, and you've solved both Puerto and the 06 Tour. A pity the 2006 season had to be wrecked to learn that simple lesson.

Until team leadership and governing body leadership commit to stopping doping, it will continue. Don't blame the riders - they're just the most visible sign. Blame the people who push them in that direction, because as long as the pressure is there, and the opportunity is there, riders will dope.

I would have to agree that it is certainly deeper than just the riders. The problem is that if one rider refused to take part and didn't perform as well as another who did juice, we all know who would be the rider getting the prestige and being touted by the team as their man. And if we do have credible riders in the peloton that do say no to the juice, the problem is there is always someone else willing to step up and over them to juice and do better.

Does anyone recall any team ever on their own accord stopping a rider because they the team deem the rider to be suspicious for doping. Clearly they would have to be turning a blind eye not to have direct evidence of this. It is a game of beating the system, and it takes more than just a single rider to do that. I suspect the equipment that teams use to check their riders is more there for beating the system than uncovering a doped rider.

Wasn't Phonak warned twice about Tyler during his last season of irregularities. And wasn't the response something along the lines of your equipment must be miss calibrated because ours shows everything is in check?

Why am I not surprised?

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"No nation is drunken where wine is cheap..." -- Thomas Jefferson

...when I go down I'm taking the peleton with me !

But aren't you worried about all of the other people you'll put out of work when your clients find out you've been bilking them, and take their business elsewehere?

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"No nation is drunken where wine is cheap..." -- Thomas Jefferson

Good post... this from Simeoni today (from another thread):

"I am a hundred percent with Gianni Bugno, when he spoke yesterday in the Giornale. The team-managers and team medical staff must take their share of the responsibility. It’s not right that when a rider is in trouble they wash their hands of him. It is their responsibility too. Look at the CSC Team of Ivan Basso. Before the Tour they loose Basso and then they almost win it with Sastre. Did it make much difference to them? It is essential to change. Ullrich is involved? In that case his team should have been forced to stop until they have given a full explanation. Only then would you see the managers begin to really keep a close eye on their riders, and not be able to say they know nothing. They are the first to encourage doping”

There are some very professional and correct teams. Look at Liquigas: I know that they are very well disciplined. But they are not getting any results. On the other hand we know that about sixty riders are “working” with Fuentes- how can Liquigas hope to win?