Lefevere to vomit or head of doping ring ? - Page 2

You have followed cycling this long...... What is different today then in the 90's, the 80's the 70's.?????? Doping has always gone on...... What have you been watching???? Disco did not invent the dope..... Nor did they accelerate it......Only people who started watching the sport in the late 90's think that Disco "epitomized" doping.



I think if the Lefevere thing gets out of control, you will see the individual who "epitomized" doping as we know it now. Disco only epitomized doping for the Lance haters. Look at the past 30 years.

Am I wrong????? We have cycling all around us here in the states.. We do not have the level of road racing as Europe does, however we have some very good riders..... Our track racers go thru periods when they can hold their own against any individual country in Europe......

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"Since we started [selling the Livestrong wristbands], we've sold 75 million of these bracelets," said Armstrong. "What's different this year, is that anybody who buys a bracelet during the Tour, all the money stays here. I think it's important for people to understand that the money they spend - 1 Euro - is not going to Texas or the United States, it stays in France."

I agree. The current corrupt doping structure needs to be exposed and the whole sport needs to crushed, destroyed, and laughed at. Doping is so deeply ingrained into the culture that a few stopgaps measures here and there won't help. The peloton and the teams think they can get away with anything. They will only clean up when they see the sponsors leave and the fans hate them.

Cycling is about cheating, through and through. The fans need to be disappointed and disgusted. After all, this is a sport that sanctions the poisoning of its own and a sport that encourages its juniors to outsource their health to corrupt drug trafficers. We look the other way when 24 year old kids have strokes and heart attacks. We need a little outrage -- cycling needs to see consequences. I'd rather watch a few clean riders do a parking lot crit than see 170 juiced up cheaters pumping out 500 watts on climbs and almost never having a bad day and when they do they just pump themselves full of testosterone and have a miracle day the next.

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Harry

I like this one:

'Soigneur 2' tells a story about Freddy Viaene, a colleague from the Discovery Channel team. "Viaene isn't welcome anywhere: burned his hands, got spat out by the peloton. He knew how the Americans work, he worked with ... " several leading riders, 'Soigneur 2' was quoted in Het Laatste Nieuws. QuickStep's popular soigneur, Dirk Nachtergaele, apparently said to Lefevere, "you can't take that guy in our team!" Despite this Lefevere insisted and wanted Viaene in the team.

- Now how do those Americans work ?

There goes Lefevre's credibility and I don't think he will be influencing anything more about Discos / Basso's participation in big races, like he was hoping to do.

Hypocritical wanker.

The difference is that EPO actually works while the benefits of amphetamines and steroids for aerobic sports is questionable. Clean riders could still compete before EPO. There may not have been many clean riders but doping was not a necessity. Lemond might have won the Tour clean. I don't know if he did, but it was possible at that time, especially for somone of Lemond's talent. No one can win the Tour today without dope, and the loss of ambiguity about whether or not dope is being used is a huge difference with the 70s and 80s. It severs the link between me as a non-doping amateur and the pros.

I think the real reason you keep harping on the 70s and 80s is to excuse Armstrong's dope use. You want to draw a parallel between the dope use today and the past, but I don't see them as equivalent. High schoolers catching a buzz by guzzling Robotussin is not the same as mainlining heroin. EPO started the heroin phase of the sport's dope use.

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"You are like the wind and I like the lion. You form the tempest. The sand stings my eyes and the ground is parched. I roar in defiance but you do not hear. But between us there is a difference. I, like the lion, must remain in my place. While you like the wind will never know yours." -- Mulay Hamid El Raisuli, Lord of the Riff, Sultan to the Berbers, Last of the Barbary Pirates

And how the hell is the sport going to be cleaned up by ostriches with their heads in the sand?

Well "unnamed" sources are not the be all and end of our judicial process... remember this is the press not a high court ! However I do agree somewhat.... If there "unamed" souces don't come forward then he can sue the **** off the paper...... or they will have to print a retraction.... the damage is done thou and that was the idea.... its good to see we get upset how Floyd is treated by the media but we think this is a good thing !!!!?????

Where's the proof you ask? Well thats what some of us have been shouting from the rooftops for a while now re Basso, Ullrich and OP.

As a result Im likely to take these Lefevre allegations just as seriously as Lefevre takes the Basso and Ullrich allegations.

Why shouldnt there be a suspension for a DS if there are allegations hanging over his head? Oh yeah, sorry, thats not possible because Lefevre is head of the pro teams union.

And finally, you are suggesting implicitly that someone was out to discredit Lefevre for their own end.Who and why? As for me, perhaps it was by someone who cares about the sport and wants to call attention to the bigger picture that cycling is rife with dopage, and not just a problem of one team or a handful of OP suspects.

I agree with you.... this is all good stuff..... the more we get out in the open and even if its in unfashionable ways then so be it... its a good thing.... Lefevre wanted to vomit over Floyd but maybe the peleton could vomit on him ?..... this is not the last of it...... its only going to open a can of worms against other DS's and riders..... Mr.McQuaid is watching patiently to see the fall-out... to then claim that he fixed doping in the peleton !
One last point thou... do we trust Floyd Landis positive test (11-1) or a man on 3 seperate murder charges who's been in the clink for 10 years ? Don't bother responding because I know your answer....

Yes, now the DSs are being smeared, who knows where it will lead.

It will lead to the fans? Heras will claim that a crazed roadside fan injected him with EPO as he rode by. Other fans will be revealed to have drunk large doses of coffee, excessive amounts of beer and some even to have smoked the odd bit of grass (usually before starting threads on this site).

That is a good line of questioning. If cycling acts like a typical bureaucracy then there will be a move to shut down or limit the fight against doping. Throwing the random serf to the mob is one thing; when it affects the aristocracy, that is another.

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"You are like the wind and I like the lion. You form the tempest. The sand stings my eyes and the ground is parched. I roar in defiance but you do not hear. But between us there is a difference. I, like the lion, must remain in my place. While you like the wind will never know yours." -- Mulay Hamid El Raisuli, Lord of the Riff, Sultan to the Berbers, Last of the Barbary Pirates

"The difference is that EPO actually works while the benefits of amphetamines and steroids for aerobic sports is questionable."...

Questionable? There is no question they were performance enhancing. I know first hand they elevated perfomance....... [speed]. I never used in competition, but I did try the stuff. It is really helpful, As far as steroids go, they turn a mule into a race horse..... Go to a local gym and tell me otherwise.

"It severs the link between me as a non-doping amateur and the pros."

I can understand exactly how you feel about that. There are many things that seperate a amateur and a pro. And the level of expertise in doping is one of them....... I don't know where you race, but I imagine many of your competitors you would like to think are clean are using.

Where I draw the equivalant between then and today is that doping products were used then to get a competitive edge, and were as part of the sport , as they are today... It was just accepted then within th esport as it is today....
I am not sure how you entered the sport, as a fan first , or a competitior. I entered as a competitior, brought into the sport by several very good riders.....[Locally] I spent some time with them at a few major races...... [I rode in a different catagory] What I saw opened my eyes. But then as I read about Europe.....nothing was different over there.

EPO has elevated the possible danger to riders over time..... And I think everyone on this board wishes dope was not part of the sport. But it is so ingrained, I do not think we will ever see a clean sport. {and other sports are dirty too. I actually heard of a local golfer pumping himself up on roids]

Disliking Discovery is natural, But wanting them or anyone else to "implode" is not wanting the best for the sport...... The sport has been damaged enough. We are aware of the problems. Now it must move forward. Otherwise it will be brought down to it's knees.

I do not like TM anymore....... [Because of the way they treated Zabel and possibly JU ] I wish them bad luck on the road...... I hope they never win again. {They will } But I do not like what happened to them in the JU case.And I would hate to see JU guilty......

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"Since we started [selling the Livestrong wristbands], we've sold 75 million of these bracelets," said Armstrong. "What's different this year, is that anybody who buys a bracelet during the Tour, all the money stays here. I think it's important for people to understand that the money they spend - 1 Euro - is not going to Texas or the United States, it stays in France."

Point to a study showing amphetamines or steroids have anywhere near the effect of EPO (+10%) for aerobic sports. I don't care about body building at a gym. It doesn't matter how big your muscles are if you cannot give them more fuel (oxygen) to produce power. The point is that clean riders could compete in the 70s and 80s, they cannot compete now because of the immense effect of EPO.

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"You are like the wind and I like the lion. You form the tempest. The sand stings my eyes and the ground is parched. I roar in defiance but you do not hear. But between us there is a difference. I, like the lion, must remain in my place. While you like the wind will never know yours." -- Mulay Hamid El Raisuli, Lord of the Riff, Sultan to the Berbers, Last of the Barbary Pirates

Well, testosterone alone has a huge synergistic effect. First, it creates a hugely uneven stasis on the outside of the muscle cell membrane, which pushes nutrients, glycogen and oxygen across at a much faster pace during rest and exercise. It promotes protein synthesis and prevents catabolism. It also increases rbc's significantly in most people and then pushes them across the cell membrane at a much quicker rate during exercise.

My belief is, a seasoned Cat. 2 athlete running 250mg/week of testosterone for 12-15 weeks, in three to four cycles (about a year and a half) he will be able to compete against most professionals in North America. Compete meaning, finish in the pack, get in a few moves, place every so often.

But, if you take a testosterone regiment like the one above and stack HGH and IGF-1 (two compounds proven to INCREASE the number of muscle cells), run some steroid similar to Deca (a very detectable strength builder), throw in some Anavar (short-term steroid capable of building strength without mass) and EPO, well then you've got today's Pro Tour athlete.

Wolf, Bro, you guys are arguing the same point ref. drug use. It's not that they weren't using back in the 80s and 90s, or that the compounds weren't effective, it's just that now they taking everything they can think of including legal supplements. And, they're monitoring their blood and keeping them right on the edge of detection and the whatever short-term health perils they might face.

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"Bait in 08" --nns1400