Lefevere to vomit or head of doping ring ? - Page 3

I am not arguing that EPO is not highly effective. My argument is that a rider who used PED's of any form back in the day was cheating, just like today.
Speaking of GT winners, I cannot think of any rider[yellow jersey] who probably was clean. Lemond says he was....... but no one in the peleton has ever said anything to back him up....... But let's look at the list of highly suspected riders........
2006 Floyd Landis, USA Poster boy

2005 Lance Armstrong, USA Clean? Right.....
2004 Lance Armstrong, USA

2003 Lance Armstrong, USA

2002 Lance Armstrong, USA

2001 Lance Armstrong, USA

2000 Lance Armstrong, USA
1999 Lance Armstrong, USA

1998 Marco Pantani, ITA Clean?
1997 Jan Ullrich, GER Clean?

1996 Bjarne Riis, DEN Mr 60%

1995 Miguel Indurain, ESP Lemond says he was a doper......

1994 Miguel Indurain, ESP
1993 Miguel Indurain, ESP

1992 Miguel Indurain, ESP

1991 Miguel Indurain, ESP

1990 Greg Lemond, USA He was superman.... he didn't dope,
but he manhandled all the dopers. Oh yeah, he rode with
several convicted dopers, and as whiney as Greg is, I'm sure he
would have whined about that unless.............. Wait , he did whine
about the dopers of the future, never about the ones "HE " rode with.
And his miracle recovery just in time to win the Tour de France was "iron shots."

1989 Greg Lemond, USA

1988 Pedro Delgado, ESP Just masking agents.......

1987 Stephen Roche, IRE I would like to think he was clean,
but I though Sean K was until Lim pinted it out to me. And to beat
the doped up Ti-Raleigh boys at all the major races?

1986 Greg Lemond, USA

1985 Bernard Hinault, FRA Suffered from the "dopers injury."

1984 Laurent Fignon, FRA Convicted

1983 Laurent Fignon, FRA

1982 Bernard Hinault, FRA

1981 Bernard Hinault, FRA

1980 Joop Zoetemelk, HOL Convicted

This list would make up a "Who's who" of top ranked riders who are clean.
Just ask them.

It was the Delgado incident that made the news that started the talk about doping.
By the time the Festina affair hit, doping was old news.

In order to win a GT at any time, I think doping would have been required.

I think everyone enjoyed the sport anyway knowing the doping was going on.......
They still had to suffer up the Alps,they still had to attack .......
They could just do it with a little more juice.......

And to the guys who race that want to identify with a pro rider......... Quit your job,
ride 6 hours a day, get a world class coach, and have equipment tossed your way.Have
the right parents for genetic reasons too...

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"Since we started [selling the Livestrong wristbands], we've sold 75 million of these bracelets," said Armstrong. "What's different this year, is that anybody who buys a bracelet during the Tour, all the money stays here. I think it's important for people to understand that the money they spend - 1 Euro - is not going to Texas or the United States, it stays in France."

And get on a reliable doping schedule.

A friend of mine, who has hinted to me that he's doping, riding for a team here in N. America with a reputation as being doped was riding at a high Cat. 2 level three years ago. He's 41 now and he's winning pro 1-2 races easily and competing against N. American pros.

There are very few professional athletes who won't dope. It's just that, they want it that bad.

Additionally, I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that Hamilton was doping his ass off during his suspension. Steroids, HGH, IGF-1 and testosterone. Why wouldn't he? It's not like they were testing him anymore. And those compounds produce long-term results that don't go away. Plus they are available on the internet. Floyd will do the same.

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"Bait in 08" --nns1400

I'm not aware of a single rider that's accused Lemond of doping (except, apparently Armstrong). And I think that at the time he took iron shots, his hematocrit was in the upper '20s-low '30s? (How dare he take an iron supplement!) I don't think Lemond is a whiner, I think he has had a lot of legitimate gripes, from getting screwed over by his French teammates (Hinault in particular), and getting screwed over by the cycling media for having the audacity to question the Armstrong/Nike/Bristol-Myers miracle story.

When Lemond was training for the '91 Tour, he said he was in better shape (based on his own measure, not against other riders) than he was in '90. But he was off the back come race time. He wasn't "manhandling" the dopers, he was watching the EPO-laden pack ride away from him.

Lemond wasn't on EPO, but he was on everything available at the time. Had he stuck around longer, he would have made an EPO connection.

Plus, how can you think (not being personal here) that Armstrong doped but Lemond didn't. They're both champions and champions dope. Champions don't beat doped athletes clean. They're doped.

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"Bait in 08" --nns1400

Some stuff : calculated power on the last mountain passe of a long stage.
alleged weight for every rider + bike : 78kg !
http://www.cyclismag.com/article.php?sid=2433
http://www.cyclismag.com/article.php?sid=2523

Greg manhandled the dopers from the beginning of his career..... The fact he was winning races when we know there were great riders who did dope....... The Peter Post boys were known to digest a few times, and they were very difficult to beat. But Greg beat them...
In the end...... the riders were shooting by him because he had medical problems that led to his retirement.
The part I have a hard time with is this........ When you read his bio, it will lead you to believe he won everything in America everytime he raced. He didn't. I witnessed times when others such as Greg Allison [Demegan} Jeff Bradley and a few others won too. He went to Europe and he became very fast......

I was at a few races where Greg was whining before he was old enough to mis-pronounce Hinaults name. And yes, he did have a hard time in Europe. He did get screwed a few times. He was a great rider. And he will tell you exactly why he didn't win 5 or more Tour de France's if you want to listen......
Big fan of Greg as a rider.
Why would the riders from back then point at Greg and say he was a doper????

But I could care less if he did....... or any of them for that matter. The point I was trying to make was dope seemed to have it's head pretty deep into GT winners pockets........

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"Since we started [selling the Livestrong wristbands], we've sold 75 million of these bracelets," said Armstrong. "What's different this year, is that anybody who buys a bracelet during the Tour, all the money stays here. I think it's important for people to understand that the money they spend - 1 Euro - is not going to Texas or the United States, it stays in France."

Interesting numbers, but the constant value used for weight of rider + bike is odd. My french is rusty, but were they using the same assumed weights for Hererra (135 ibs.) and Indurain (175 ilbs.) just because they can't get more accurate information?

Actually, it was his brother-in-law that shot by him. Sorry, couldn't resist.

Yes, because weight change along the Tour de France, along the stage and how many bottles had the rider. If you have the real weights of a rider you can easily calculate his apparently real power Pr.
Pr = Pc *(Weight rider + bike)/78 with Pc

I don't know if Lemond doped or not, and I doubt anyone knows except for Lemond. That said, I think it is possible that Lemond didn't dope. Prior to EPO, I don't think a GT champion had to dope, although I'm sure many of them did. Why do I think it was possible Greg didn't dope (or didn't have to)?
1. He was a superstar from the beginning. As a junior he was riding at a pro level. He clearly had the right combination of talent and genetics.
2. Prior to EPO and GH, the primary doping drugs were amphetamines and steroids. Amphetamines may be great for a one day race or if you're only interested in a single stage of a GT, but for the guy who has to perform every day, they can be a disaster. That effort you produced the day before because of speed, you will be certain to feel the next day. There's no way around it. When you stress your muscles at that level you will pay the price and need time to recover. The exception to this may be the rider who's "addicted" to speed and needs it just to ride at his norm. If he doesn't take it, he'll ride like crap. I also don't think Greg used steroids. Why? Look at his body habitus and compare it to a current tour rider. Lemond always had the look of a guy with a little "baby fat" compared to today's riders' chiseled appearance. Steroids do a lot of things, but one thing they do the best is allow you to maintain muscle mass while you lose body fat. Look at a lot of older tour riders and you'll find the same thing. Compare a picture of Stephen Roche, Lemond, or even Merckx to a current tour champion. It isn't "better nutrition" that makes people look that much different.
3. His precipitous decline in the early 90's makes me think he was never introduced to EPO while wheel suckers suddenly started winning. Dopers dope, that's what they do. If a better substance comes along, they're going to take it. There's no evidence Greg used EPO, and more evidence to suggest he didn't.

The doping we see now has completely changed cycling and that is what Lemond objects to. Prior to the early 90s it was possible for non-dopers to win. Not only have the drugs become much more powerful, but we now have "doctors" that provide constant monitoring and advice on the best methods. The Italian contingent revolutionized performance enhancement. It went from black magic to a skilled science.

+1

My thoughts exactly.

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"You are like the wind and I like the lion. You form the tempest. The sand stings my eyes and the ground is parched. I roar in defiance but you do not hear. But between us there is a difference. I, like the lion, must remain in my place. While you like the wind will never know yours." -- Mulay Hamid El Raisuli, Lord of the Riff, Sultan to the Berbers, Last of the Barbary Pirates

Hold on a second here - before you continue to misquote people and you start getting ahead of yerself.

Several points of clarification.

First of all, in respect of doping : I have stated here several times that riders may have taken amphetamines and other such substances BUT I have consistently made the point that in doing so, they took the stuff in order to be able to race - as opposed to trying to improve performance.

EPO, HGH and genetic modification is singularly different.
Use of EPO, HGH and genetic modification actaully improves performances to a huge degree.
The donkey becomes a Ferrari : riders start to improve to untold levels.
They suddenly climb where before they were static - after they're put on a doping program.
Amphetamines couldn't make you climb faster, consistently.
Amphetamines don't increase wattage output, consistently.

In respect of the people that you have listed on your list : Armstrong and landis have been found to have used EPO and Testosterone.
In respect of the others - no cases of EPO usage in competition has been uncovered.
Does that mean that they didn't dope?
I am not suggesting that they didn't dope - I am suggesting that if they did, they haven't been uncovered.

In respect of Kelly and Roche : Roche's name did turn up in a Ferrari file from 1993, where it is alleged a codename denoted Roche's identity.
Roche has denied that he ever used the services of Ferrari and he said that
other members of Carrara may have used Ferrari's services but he denies all involvement with Ferrari and he did so on national television here when interview along with David Walsh - who highlighted the case here in Ireland.

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.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it" - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

Slow up... My quote from you had to deal with Sean K only. It had nothing to do wit the rest of the post. In a posting, you and I were discussing Sean K and you pointed out to me of the allegations towards Sean K... Nothing more then that....That is why I suggested input from you on Roche...... I know you know your Irish riders......

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"Since we started [selling the Livestrong wristbands], we've sold 75 million of these bracelets," said Armstrong. "What's different this year, is that anybody who buys a bracelet during the Tour, all the money stays here. I think it's important for people to understand that the money they spend - 1 Euro - is not going to Texas or the United States, it stays in France."

Mine too. Also, the notion that Lemond "got fast" when he went to Europe is kind of misleading. The guy was 18 when he signed with Renault and moved to Europe. Also, VO2max of 92.

And yes, while it's true Lemond didn't win "everything" while in the U.S., he won almost everything. For a lot of the time in the U.S., he was riding as a junior on restricted gears. He won the Red Zinger at what, age 17? (Not a pro race, but still, kicking butt on 28 year-olds, including the Russian national team). All the other American riders will admit that Lemond was simply on a different level from the rest (Bradley, Demgen, Schuler, Stetina, Phinney, Kiefel, Grewal, et al.)

The president of the professional teams association and Quick.Step team manager Patrick Lefevere has put forward the idea of legal action against Floyd Landis for damaging the sport of cycling. "Actually, we should take him to court for what he is now doing to cycling," said Lefevere to Sportwereld.be. "Why not? Why not take the American approach of dealing with things and apply it here? As long as Landis continues to maintain that he knows nothing, this sort of scenario becomes more likely. I feel like throwing up when I hear him. Landis has turned the clock back 20 years."