2nd Tour EPO Positive - Barloworld Busted - Page 4

poulidor · #46 07-16.-2008

I'm not specialized in medicine but there is different kinds of EPO. The Amgen EPO is different of DynEPO but probably closer that mircera.
For example Amgen EPO should be done 4 times a month but micera can be use just one times for a full month.
The chinese, russian,... EPO are copied EPO with little variation in their molecules to make them less detectable. Their producers are probably targeting the athletes!

Wayne666 · #47 07-16.-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by C'dale Girl

Are we sure that there are different classifications as to EPO?

From what I recall basically you have different isoforms (i.e. the same functional protein but different enough molecularly that they can be differentiated on assays) of EPO in your body (~10 of them). The big problem with detecting doping EPO is that it is a recombinant drug, basically the same as what in our body (this is the same problem with HgH or Insulin). So those 10 isoforms have a typical normal distribution in a person, if you take drug EPO that distribution gets atypical but there is no unique marker for the dope EPO, if it's different enough from what's normal you're deemed positive. From what I recall the two major kinds of EPO (the US and European versions) caused different shifts in the isoform distribution. I'm not sure how Dynepo fits into this equation.

Tim Lamkin · #48 07-16.-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by poulidor

I'm not specialized in medicine but there is different kinds of EPO. The Amgen EPO is different of DynEPO but probably closer that mircera.
For example Amgen EPO should be done 4 times a month but micera can be use just one times for a full month.
The chinese, russian,... EPO are copied EPO with little variation in their molecules to make them less detectable. Their producers are probably targeting the athletes!

Actually they are using amoeba blood, it is the latest and all the craze among... the big teams…only problem it really does take ton of the little buggers to get enough for one little tiny cyclist…of the mountain climber type

TheDarkLord · #49 07-16.-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Lamkin

Actually they are using amoeba blood, it is the latest and all the craze among... the big teams…only problem it really does take ton of the little buggers to get enough for one little tiny cyclist…of the mountain climber type

Amoeba have blood?

Wow, the kind of things you learn in this forum!

Wayne666 · #50 07-16.-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bro Deal

Uh-oh. It is probably obvious that under police questioning Moises will admit that the stash found was for both riders.

I really don't see why all the team's hotel rooms are not searched. The team doctor probably has a whole suitcase of junk.

Media reports are now saying Cardenas was Duenas' roomate.

Crankyfeet · #51 07-17.-2008

All they have to do IMHO is store the blood (B and "C" samples - take an extra sample so that the 1999 EPO retro test defense Lance used is foiled) and say that athlete's/cyclists are at risk of conviction in the future if a new test comes out that finds them PED positive.. and all of a sudden the risk of the athlete being caught before he dies of old age goes through the roof.

You can beat today's tests.. but can you beat the tests for HBC's in 2015?

Eldron · #52 07-17.-2008

One thing I find odd about the whole drug bust thing is the lack of procedure...

I thought the procedure was: test "A" sample, inform rider confidentialy, rider has decision to have "B" sample tested before results are made public.

In Dumbass' case they searched his room based on his positive "A" sample and found doping products - fry him I say!

But Beltran - what happens if the "B" sample is negative? Do they send him a "sorry" card and pick a random result for him at the Tour?

I know the chance of any "B" sample being negative is slight but it just strikes me as unprofessional to right a procedure and then not stick to it. It leaves the door open ala Landis style for the lab, procedure, personnel, protocol etc to be questioned in a court case by the rider.

Testing should be sharp, prompt and correct - not turned into a pre-emptive media frenzy.

poulidor · #53 07-17.-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eldron

One thing I find odd about the whole drug bust thing is the lack of procedure...

I thought the procedure was: test "A" sample, inform rider confidentialy, rider has decision to have "B" sample tested before results are made public.

In Dumbass' case they searched his room based on his positive "A" sample and found doping products - fry him I say!

But Beltran - what happens if the "B" sample is negative? Do they send him a "sorry" card and pick a random result for him at the Tour?

I know the chance of any "B" sample being negative is slight but it just strikes me as unprofessional to right a procedure and then not stick to it. It leaves the door open ala Landis style for the lab, procedure, personnel, protocol etc to be questioned in a court case by the rider.

Testing should be sharp, prompt and correct - not turned into a pre-emptive media frenzy.

Beltran is already guilty by trying to escape the doping test which finally was positive!

If Beltran stays in race, and would be found positive with the B sample, you have a similar problem: a team racing with a doped rider!

In fact Beltran had no choice, he had to follow the police to be questionned, so he should have be at least DNF

In many sports like football a player can be send out following a red card... and sometimes the player had done no fault. To accept that the referee could make a fault is a basic rule explained in most sport like judo, rugby,...

poulidor · #54 07-17.-2008

Duenas has not be released yesterday. He could have a long night in front of policemen.
This morning he should meet a "prosecutor", that means that he is faulty anf has broken the laws.
And apparently Barloworld hotel could have be raided a second times (or another team but I doubt?)

Crankyfeet · #55 07-17.-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by poulidor

Beltran is already guilty by trying to escape the doping test which finally was positive!

If Beltran stays in race, and would be found positive with the B sample, you have a similar problem: a team racing with a doped rider!

In fact Beltran had no choice, he had to follow the police to be questionned, so he should have be at least DNF

In many sports like football a player can be send out following a red card... and sometimes the player had done no fault. To accept that the referee could make a fault is a basic rule explained in most sport like judo, rugby,...

I see your point but what if hypothetically they get a positive on the yellow jersey after say Stage 16... and he withdraws... then the B sample tests negative? Not likely... but possible.

poulidor · #56 07-17.-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crankyfeet

I see your point but what if hypothetically they get a positive on the yellow jersey after say Stage 16... and he withdraws... then the B sample tests negative? Not likely... but possible.

In the current context, that yellow jersey would be lucky... he is avoiding a 2 year bans. In 2 or more years, if doping fight has won, it would be time to change the rule.

TheDarkLord · #57 07-17.-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crankyfeet

I see your point but what if hypothetically they get a positive on the yellow jersey after say Stage 16... and he withdraws... then the B sample tests negative? Not likely... but possible.

Yeah, but it is also possible for the yellow jersey to lose several minutes by being stuck at a railway gate. Of course this not the right analogy since your situation is somewhat under the organizers' control, while the situation I described is not under anyones' control. But unless there is some evidence of irregularities, I think it will just be part of the race - somewhat similar to a team/country winning a football match due to a wrong referee decision, which has definitely happened in the past.

lucybears · #58 07-17.-2008

Ricco positif !
http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/breve...sitif_Dev.html

Eldron · #59 07-17.-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by poulidor

Beltran is already guilty by trying to escape the doping test which finally was positive!

If Beltran stays in race, and would be found positive with the B sample, you have a similar problem: a team racing with a doped rider!

In fact Beltran had no choice, he had to follow the police to be questionned, so he should have be at least DNF

In many sports like football a player can be send out following a red card... and sometimes the player had done no fault. To accept that the referee could make a fault is a basic rule explained in most sport like judo, rugby,...

Using your analogy the positive "A" sample is a yellow card and a positive "B" a red card.

If a rider is being tossed out of the race and fired by the team on an "A" positive then why bother with the "B"?

You can always remove a cyclist's results/jersey/money etc but you can't put him back in the race...

Also the police should not be arresting people on a positive "A" before the "B" is tested. They shouldn't even know about the positive "A" according to "the system".

It's a minor point but just another case of the doping agencies not really getting having sh!t together...

Cobblestones · #60 07-17.-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crankyfeet

You can beat today's tests.. but can you beat the tests for HBC's in 2015?

Sure, but who cares in 2015? See Riis' win in 1996. So he wasn't allow to drive in the team car for one year. Who cares.

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