Dear ASO (I want my EPO!) . . . - Page 2

Hitchy · #16 07-24.-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by classic1

Better without the gear IMO.

I like to see them suffer like dogs. See Kohl absolutely smashed after the Alpe d'Huez stage. See Evans pale, drawn and strained with lines etched in his face after the Restefond stage. Look at Menchov cracking and dragging his carcass back up to the leaders.

Watching blokes with fat arses riding up cols breathing through their noses was pissing me off.

+ 1 gazillion....I sort of miss the 'personalities', but I don't miss what made them 'personalities'...geez ya a hard man to please though, Serpico...what did we have last year...the second closest Tour de France ever, 3 within 30 secs has never happened before...what about this year?...whatever the result, we're gunna go into stage 20 with 4 or 5 guys that think they can win!....when was the last time that happened?....so while some of the riders & tactics may be a little less 'exciting' than the dopeheads years...I'd rather see a battle of athletes than of chemists....hey there's an idea...why not a Tour de France for the chemists, can only take stuff you invented ya self, all gotta be wearing ya white coats & glasses...& we can all stand on the sidelines & argue over whose 'poindexter' is the 'nerdiest'

tonyzackery · #17 07-24.-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klodifan

it is all relative. im not interested in wheelsucking, pussy tactics by ogre on bike. im not interested in just above average professional cyclists. i want to see greatness. i want to see the vinos and riccos in this tour.

and yes, i do think some cyclists have a reserve of performance and miss opportunities to attack b/c of lack of confidence. its the fear of losing that makes it especially boring for spectators to watch. great champions are fearless.

I'm curious: where does Sastre's attack rate on your greatness meter???

Runitout · #18 07-24.-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyzackery

I'm curious: where does Sastre's attack rate on your greatness meter???

Looked pretty bloody fearless to me - base of the Alpe - bashes it up to 11 and says - cop this, anyone game?

And then suffers like Prometheus for 14k so he can win the bike race. If he'd blown up in a slobbering, snivelling, hypoxic mess, we'd have still said "Well done". As it was, it was magnificent bike racing.

Menchov was classy as all hell, too. Busting a gut to get back up to the bunch, and then having a dig at the end to put whatever time he could into Evans.

The only gutless thing was sucking wheels when you needed to attack to win the Tour. Yes, I'm looking at you, Valverde and VdV. Kohl was obviously in the box - he doesn't count.

b1_ · #19 07-24.-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by serpico7

If this year is a taste of the future of pro cycling, I'd like my money back (oh, right, I never paid any money).

If the future involves only slightly doped riders marking each others every move with very few able to mount attacks, and only on the last climb of a stage involving 3 HC climbs, I'd rather not bother tuning in. Don't get me wrong, I thought the doping crackdown would result in a more level playing field. But I didn't realize how much of a killjoy it would be for the mountain stages.

How I miss the days of Ras and Contador unleashing viscious attacks on each other and on the poor wheelsuckers who tried to follow them. I would have paid to see the Cobra mixing it up with those two.

How I miss the very red-blooded (both figuratively and literally) Vinokurov racing to a stage win and into viewers' hearts.

How I miss Flandis' spectacular comeback in the grueling heat, where he had to pour gallons of water on himself to prevent his supercharged body from overheating.

How I miss the improbably large mountain climbing German striking fear in the enlarged hearts of smaller climbers with his relentless grinding of massive gears that make mere mortals' knees buckle at just the thought of turning Der Jan's pedals.

How I miss l'elefantino shifting into the drops and blowing the field to pieces. His love of the slopes on the road made me willing to turn a blind eye to his love of the slopes away from cycling.

And how I miss uni-ball. While his team's dominance took some of the suspense out of the race, watching Pharmstrong in the mountains was a joy. The attacks, the counterattacks, the dancing on the pedals, the look.

If the future of cycling is the whinging, wheelsucking Cadel Evans and Tours like this one, I beg you to reconsider. Please bring back Ras, Contador and the Cobra.

Regards,
Fan of the "old" cycling

C'mon man, that's ludicrous. The point has never been that they doped, it's that they doped to get a leg-up on their fellow clean cyclists. It's equivalent to them fitting an engine to their bike. Imagine the climb yesterday with 2 or 3 of the rider's bikes squealing like pee-wee 50s and ejecting exhaust as they 'dominated' their opposition. Would you be cheering for them then?

Dopers are cheats pure and simple. They will always be cheats. They're selfish and self centered and they have no respect for their colleagues. It ***** me no end that Ricco is out riding with his friends and smiling away vowing to return stronger when he's the cause of Sanier Duval pulling out of the sport and 60-70 people losing their jobs. Complete clueless dipstick! I can only hope that for the rest of his career the fans boo him like they did when he got arrested.

If everyone was doped it would at least make sense from a competition standpoint. I still wouldn't watch it though. I wouldn't be able to relate to juiced up super athletes because I don't use the stuff and am not interested in using it - I get up the climbs fine with what I've got. I would switch over to the clean version.

Rolfrae · #20 07-24.-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by classic1

Better without the gear IMO.

I like to see them suffer like dogs. See Kohl absolutely smashed after the Alpe d'Huez stage. See Evans pale, drawn and strained with lines etched in his face after the Restefond stage. Look at Menchov cracking and dragging his carcass back up to the leaders.

Watching blokes with fat arses riding up cols breathing through their noses was pissing me off.

I agree with you Classic. It was great to see guys like Evans and Kohl absolutely stuffed at the top of L'Alpe, unlike previous years when Armstrong looked like he'd done nothing more strenuous than a lap of the Wallmart parking lot. Where was Hincapie yesterday? He was back where his physique suggests he should be - in the bus. Where would he have been if we were still in the EPO years? Riding no hands, popping wheelies, waving at the cameras. Fark the bad old days. I want to see those guys suffer, 'cause that's what happens in the real world.

Jono L · #21 07-24.-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klodifan

these guys are boring, so the race is boring. their dispositions lack the charisma that so many of the riders you referenced above have. except for valverde, b/c hes a star! too bad he crashed and cracked in the pyrenees. .

You kidding right? Maybe they should stop physiology testing at all the big sporting institutes, yep that's right guys. It's charisma that determines who wins the race.

Better yet, **** this epo ****, let's get them a life coach and pump them to the gills with charisma! How can they loose?

Oh and on the topic of charisma, Kloden?

serpico7 · #22 07-24.-2008

Wow, nearly universal condemnation for the idea. I'll respond quickly to some points raised.

1. Yes, if only one time is hopped up on the good stuff, it’s boring. But if lots are, it can be very exciting. Imagine Contador, Ras and Cobra battling on the steeps.

2. Someone mentioned last year’s Tour. I thought the most exciting parts of that Tour were Vino’s comeback ride, Ras/Contador battling, and the tight final TT. If you exclude Vino, Ras AND Contador (after all, he was as hopped up as anybody from what I saw), it’s a battle between two wheelsuckers – Levi and Cadel. Thrilling. Not.

3. Similarly, imagine this Tour’s mountain stages without any Saunier Duval guys, and probably Andy Shleck.

4. The tight time gaps are interesting on paper, but the actual racing has been pretty boring IMHO. In fact, pro cycling is now the only sport I follow where I find talking about the sport (with you folks and a few cycling friends) to be more interesting than actually watching the sport.

doctorSpoc · #23 07-24.-2008

actually either way i'm good... as long as the racing is exciting. look, if i didn't like watching doped up riders i wouldn't have been watching cycling for the last 20+ years.. because that's what it was and imho.. for the most part still is...

**limerickman** · #24 07-24.-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by serpico7

If this year is a taste of the future of pro cycling, I'd like my money back (oh, right, I never paid any money).

If the future involves only slightly doped riders marking each others every move with very few able to mount attacks, and only on the last climb of a stage involving 3 HC climbs, I'd rather not bother tuning in. Don't get me wrong, I thought the doping crackdown would result in a more level playing field. But I didn't realize how much of a killjoy it would be for the mountain stages.

How I miss the days of Ras and Contador unleashing viscious attacks on each other and on the poor wheelsuckers who tried to follow them. I would have paid to see the Cobra mixing it up with those two.

How I miss the very red-blooded (both figuratively and literally) Vinokurov racing to a stage win and into viewers' hearts.

How I miss Flandis' spectacular comeback in the grueling heat, where he had to pour gallons of water on himself to prevent his supercharged body from overheating.

How I miss the improbably large mountain climbing German striking fear in the enlarged hearts of smaller climbers with his relentless grinding of massive gears that make mere mortals' knees buckle at just the thought of turning Der Jan's pedals.

How I miss l'elefantino shifting into the drops and blowing the field to pieces. His love of the slopes on the road made me willing to turn a blind eye to his love of the slopes away from cycling.

And how I miss uni-ball. While his team's dominance took some of the suspense out of the race, watching Pharmstrong in the mountains was a joy. The attacks, the counterattacks, the dancing on the pedals, the look.

If the future of cycling is the whinging, wheelsucking Cadel Evans and Tours like this one, I beg you to reconsider. Please bring back Ras, Contador and the Cobra.

Regards,
Fan of the "old" cycling

Personally I prefer to watch cyclist riding clean.
Surely that is the challenge - to be able to race and complete the Tour de France cleanly?

Does this mean that the current peloton are clean?
I hope we do have a clean (er) peloton.

wicklow200 · #25 07-24.-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klodifan

these guys are boring, so the race is boring. their dispositions lack the charisma that so many of the riders you referenced above have. except for valverde, b/c hes a star! too bad he crashed and cracked in the pyrenees. and ricco injected life into the tour until he was booted for injecting something else. the rest of the lot just dont have "it".

Better change your avatar then, because Klodi ain't got it either.
One of the most underperforming, "yes" men to ever grace the pro ranks.

hawkeye87 · #26 07-24.-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by serpico7

If you exclude Vino, Ras AND Contador (after all, he was as hopped up as anybody from what I saw), it’s a battle between two wheelsuckers – Levi and Cadel. Thrilling. Not.

You are under the assumption that Levi was clean. No way could that pansy ass make the podium on the Tour without dope. Look at his ITT effort in the final TT for proof.

serpico7 · #27 07-24.-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by hawkeye87

You are under the assumption that Levi was clean. No way could that pansy ass make the podium on the Tour without dope. Look at his ITT effort in the final TT for proof.

OK, I buy that. So let's remove Levi. Then last year was all Evans (Sastre finished in fourth, nearly 7 minutes back of Evans; of course, Evans only gained that much time b/c he had faster wheels to follow).

And this year will likely be Evans. So there's the reduced doping Tour. [Likely] two consecutive wins by Cadel Evans. The new Tour - it'll put you to sleep faster than Ambien, and without the nasty side effects (though you experience nightmares involving stuffed lions).

Leafer · #28 07-24.-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by serpico7

If this year is a taste of the future of pro cycling, I'd like my money back (oh, right, I never paid any money).

If the future involves only slightly doped riders marking each others every move with very few able to mount attacks, and only on the last climb of a stage involving 3 HC climbs, I'd rather not bother tuning in. Don't get me wrong, I thought the doping crackdown would result in a more level playing field. But I didn't realize how much of a killjoy it would be for the mountain stages.

How I miss the days of Ras and Contador unleashing viscious attacks on each other and on the poor wheelsuckers who tried to follow them. I would have paid to see the Cobra mixing it up with those two.

How I miss the very red-blooded (both figuratively and literally) Vinokurov racing to a stage win and into viewers' hearts.

How I miss Flandis' spectacular comeback in the grueling heat, where he had to pour gallons of water on himself to prevent his supercharged body from overheating.

How I miss the improbably large mountain climbing German striking fear in the enlarged hearts of smaller climbers with his relentless grinding of massive gears that make mere mortals' knees buckle at just the thought of turning Der Jan's pedals.

How I miss l'elefantino shifting into the drops and blowing the field to pieces. His love of the slopes on the road made me willing to turn a blind eye to his love of the slopes away from cycling.

And how I miss uni-ball. While his team's dominance took some of the suspense out of the race, watching Pharmstrong in the mountains was a joy. The attacks, the counterattacks, the dancing on the pedals, the look.

If the future of cycling is the whinging, wheelsucking Cadel Evans and Tours like this one, I beg you to reconsider. Please bring back Ras, Contador and the Cobra.

Regards,
Fan of the "old" cycling

Forgot one:

How I miss riders dying in their late 20s and early 30s because of doping. It was so much more exciting in the "old" days of cycling, waking up in the morning and reading about Pantani's or Jimenez's or Fois' or various Dutch riders' premature deaths. Not like today, where riders just go on living day after freakin' day. Jesus, that is so boring.

serpico7 · #29 07-24.-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leafer

Forgot one:

How I miss riders dying in their late 20s and early 30s because of doping. It was so much more exciting in the "old" days of cycling, waking up in the morning and reading about Pantani's or Jimenez's or Fois' or various Dutch riders' premature deaths. Not like today, where riders just go on living day after freakin' day. Jesus, that is so boring.

Sure, deaths related to doping are tragic. The point I was making in my semi-joking initial post is that the Tour with the current rules and current doping enforcement is pretty boring (at least for me, and I would guess some others as well). That doesn't mean that the best answer is to allow unlimited doping.

Maybe the rules should be altered to encourage more aggressive riding in the mountains. Bring back time bonuses for mountain stages, and more than just the top three finishers (in case there's a breakaway)? That would get guys to attack. I'm sure there are many creative ways to encourage and reward more aggression.

Hypothetically speaking, we're on the verge of two consecutive Evans victories (see two posts up in this thread). Is his style the style of riding that the Tour wants to reward? Is that the style of racing that you, the fans, want to watch? [Note to Evans lovers - I'm not criticizing his strategy. In fact I think his strategy is perfectly suited to his strengths.]

What good is cleaning up cycling if what we're left with is dreadfully boring racing?

Crankyfeet · #30 07-24.-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by serpico7

Sure, deaths related to doping are tragic. The point I was making in my semi-joking initial post is that the Tour with the current rules and current doping enforcement is pretty boring (at least for me, and I would guess some others as well). That doesn't mean that the best answer is to allow unlimited doping.

Maybe the rules should be altered to encourage more aggressive riding in the mountains. Bring back time bonuses for mountain stages, and more than just the top three finishers (in case there's a breakaway)? That would get guys to attack. I'm sure there are many creative ways to encourage and reward more aggression.

Hypothetically speaking, we're on the verge of two consecutive Evans victories (see two posts up in this thread). Is his style the style of riding that the Tour wants to reward? Is that the style of racing that you, the fans, want to watch? [Note to Evans lovers - I'm not criticizing his strategy. In fact I think his strategy is perfectly suited to his strengths.]

What good is cleaning up cycling if what we're left with is dreadfully boring racing?

I think, as thunder has said in the FID, many have been spoilt/brainwashed by the performances of dopers in the past... who were very unreal. Shame that.

How many times did Lance crack? How many times did he put in a bad ITT because he was stuffed? It might have been fun watching the Pantani's, the Riis', the Armstrongs and Ullrich's, the Basso's, the Vino's of the past... but if they all came back today... and raced at their prime... and I knew they were all geared to the max... it would possibly be a fun spectacle... but I wouldn't respect the winner very much or view it as being authentic.

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