2009 TDF stage 17 - Bourg-Saint-Maurice Le Grand-Bornand 169.5 km - Page 6

**limerickman** · #76 07-23.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frihed89

"Selfish glory" to want, and be able to win the Tour, and to do that to try to gain a comfortable margin before the TT, Mount Ventoux and the unexpected puncture (or man-eating bear)? Even Jens Voigt would do that if he were in Contador's position.

Contador rode superbly, physically and mentally.

Compare Armstrong to Wiggins on the second last climb.

Armstrongs hair was matted his head and he was sweating profusely
(not unaturally given that it was a tough climb).
Wiggins looked comfortable - he wasn't even sweating.

nonns · #77 07-23.-2009

Yep that it does. Having seen LA slagged off mercilesly. Having seen how many others have been caught (both big and small).

Assume they're all juiced. Be surprised if it can be proved definitively that they're not. So basically all they've managed to do is speed the Tour up and taken great risks with their health - way to go.

Given Kohls comments non positive tests mean nothing (brilliant move on his part as it casts doubt on everyone. Nasty little spoiler that).

Just sit back and watch and enjoy the competition. So Sastres not winning because sadly his preparation or his talents are not all that Contis or LA's are. Likewise Cadels, Menchovs and so forth.

Thtas the way I'm now viewing it and I'm enjoying it much more as a result.

Basically until they can guarantee the accuracy and fairness of the testing and until they can agree between the sports governing bodies a set of punitive sanctions which are so harsh that riders think twice the whole drugs thing is a farce.

**limerickman** · #78 07-23.-2009

Nonns,

You consistently revert to type.

The issue doesn't concern the positive results already reported.
The science and protocols behind the positive results has been appealed/tested etc, and have withstood scrutiny, where positive results have been detected.

The broader question concerns

1.how/why, if riders were found to have doped, were they beaten by riders who are allegedly "clean"?
2. how/why, if the dope tests are working, were riders like David Millar for example, not detected?
3.how/why, detection rates by the UCI are so low, compared to say detection rates of WADA, for the sport of cycling?

nonns · #79 07-23.-2009

My apologies. My phraseology was poor. As for returning to type I think not. I was not questioning the accuracy of the positive results that have been found. I believe that the tests when positive are accurate. I question a testing process which does not detect so many riders when they are positive. Is it process? Policy or are the tests incredibly accurate but largely insensitive or is there some other explanation.

I even accept that are LA samples which might show positives. The fact that LA wasn't then busted is down to some other reasons. My comments about LA are over and done. I accept your evidence. He's a doper, There, does that make you happy?

This isn't about LA. Its about the fact that the whole thing is mired in stasis, politics, lack of transparency, elections of principle figures who are not great. Rumours, finger pointing about persecution and so forth. Its a joke. Excluding LA or Astana wouldn't help a thing

Their is no standardisation on application of punishments/sanctions. The whole area is a farce.

Perhaps the rule should be. If your team has a rider who is found to be doping then the team and all the riders on it will be excluded from professional racing for 3 years (mebbe 5 years) years. All race earnings will be paid back. All palmares of the riders will be stripped from them. The riders will not individually be allowed to ride for other teams for the period of the ban. This means that everyone would be on their guard for dopers. The cost to a riders career of keeping shtum would be such that its simply not worth it.

Yes you'd have to sacrifice a few riders and teams (perhaps no more than 1 or 2) but it might work.

I no longer believe any of the riders. Those that have confessed or those that haven't. Di Lucas test was the last straw. I will watch the sport and enjoy the spectacle whilst questioning why I continue to follow a sport full of dopers. Which I beelive is a signature from one of the other forum participants.

**limerickman** · #80 07-23.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by nonns

I no longer believe any of the riders. Those that have confessed or those that haven't. Di Lucas test was the last straw. I will watch the sport and enjoy the spectacle whilst questioning why I continue to follow a sport full of dopers. Which I beelive is a signature from one of the other forum participants.

I agree.

**limerickman** · #81 07-23.-2009

I re-watched this stage again this morning.

What a stage!
Having looked at it again, I thought that Kloden did a great stage.
He was on his hands and knees coming over the line but he gave Contador huge support on the last two climbs of the stage.

I was also very impressed with Christian Van DeVelde.
He rode well in support for Bradley Wiggins – who in turn rode a phenomenal stage.

Just looking at the Contador breakaway, i think he seriously miscalculated about the Schlecks form during the stage.
His plan to breakaway failed to break both of the Schlecks.
Just looking at the interview afterward, Riis could have been a bit more articulate given his riders superb display yesterday.
Maybe his praise got lost in its Nordic delivery.

nonns · #82 07-23.-2009

Total agreement on the Contador Schleck thing. I think Conti has a few years of growing up wrt tactics and strategy. He seems to be a bit of a hot head. That can lead to miscalculation especially when you have the strongest type of alliance which transcends teams like the Schlecks have. I wonder what its worth from a psychological perspective for the Shreks. How many extra seconds of effort can it help generate when you're trying to help your bro'

Ref the Nordic delivery thang. I'm not so sure. I think Riis has always been kind of surly and taciturn. He's never been all that big on boasting - its always fairly understated and matter of fact. He might also be trying not to appear to be too **** a hoop when he's got a major time trial coming up which might chnage things. Fially he's also got a badly broken rider. It might seen to be unseemly to be too vociferous in his praise.

Its all interesting days.

**limerickman** · #83 07-23.-2009

Ref : Riis. You might well be right with two of his riders out through injury (Arvesen and Voigt), he probably didn’t want to display too much happiness given their injuries.
I didn’t think of that.
Or as you say he could just be a surly bugger!

**jhuskey** · #84 07-23.-2009

According to my source Kloden said he didn't eat enough on this stage and ran out of gas.

**limerickman** · #85 07-23.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhuskey

According to my source Kloden said he didn't eat enough on this stage and ran out of gas.

Yeah, Kloden looked like he ran out of gas almost instantly which would appear to hint at hungerbonk.
Why was the team car up beside him giving him food beforehand?

Eldrack · #86 07-23.-2009

By the time the hunger knock hits you and you realise your mistake it's about an hour too late to have started eating. He'd probably remembered that he should have been eaten, taken on a whole load and chowed down but by then he was already on his way to getting toasted. Probably saved himself some time and will help with today but wasn't early enough to stop him flying backwards yesterday.

**jhuskey** · #87 07-23.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

Yeah, Kloden looked like he ran out of gas almost instantly which would appear to hint at hungerbonk.
Why was the team car up beside him giving him food beforehand?

Knowing this it makes more sense that Contador kept looking back not understanding why he didn't accelerate as he would normally.

**limerickman** · #88 07-23.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eldrack

By the time the hunger knock hits you and you realise your mistake it's about an hour too late to have started eating. He'd probably remembered that he should have been eaten, taken on a whole load and chowed down but by then he was already on his way to getting toasted. Probably saved himself some time and will help with today but wasn't early enough to stop him flying backwards yesterday.

I'm aware of what the hungerknock is - and even a water carrier like me knows that you have to eat regularly, and often, to ensure that you don't get the bonk.

I'm surprised at a professional like Kloden getting the hungerknock.

Then again, this was the man who three years ago, decided to make a mess of a sprint finish and managed to gift a stage to Armstrong.
i like Kloden.........but sometime I get the distinct feeling that the brain does not engage at times.

**jhuskey** · #89 07-23.-2009

I got the information from his old team mate who talked to him yesterday.

**limerickman** · #90 07-23.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhuskey

I got the information from his old team mate who talked to him yesterday.

Impeccable source.

Remind him to remind him to tell him to eat, will ya!

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