2009 TDF stage 18: Annecy - Annecy 40.5 km - Page 3

DV1976 · #31 07-23.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by No_Positives

Lance should still be thinking about yellow. I'd bet anything that AC will be disqualified at some point. His performance is an embarrassment to the Tour (5 minutes or so on anyone else!!), and the organizers will find something to nail him with. It would be great if the DQ happened before the end of the Tour, so Phil and Paul could break open a bottle of champagne in the booth.

Remind us pls what was the time difference last time Lance won?

**jhuskey** · #32 07-23.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmctguer

Contador's performance was extraordinary. to beat Cancellara is nothing short of amazing.

i sure hope he isn't on the juice.......superhuman performances by dopers are getting caught more & more these days. given the time it took to flush out DeLuca's positive CERA test from the Giro, we may not know whether the Tour was clean for another month.

as for LA, i admire his performance for a 38 year old man just like I did all of Ekimov's Tours. But i wish LA would just stay home and let cycling move on without him. he is still riding well, but he is clearly not the rider he used to be. is it age, less/no drugs, 3 years off? who knows. 2010 won't be any easier for him, so why not just move on?

Interesting view point. With his present standing and if he were 27 instead of 37 he would he looked upon as a great young talent and top contender for the future.
Age should not be a factor ,it's only a number.
It will be interesting which team he is with next year and maybe he his own team.

nonns · #33 07-23.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by DV1976

Oh my... Lets redefine morality and ethics now for LA's sake. Where do we go from there? If its ok to cheat in cycling the its ok to cheat in sports in general right? Then if we can cheat in sports since its "moral" now that everyone does it why not in every day life as well? Hell why not starting shooting each other...
You really have to learn to think before you open your mouth. What you are saying is past stupid. Is downright dangerous

Actually you're wrong and I did think.

I didn't comment on whether it was right or not. I commented on what happens. What is acceptable depends entirely on what the majority consider to be acceptable. This has been the case throughout civilisation. Its what happens when countries go to war and one side wins. History gets rewritten. Years later its acceptable. Bad behaviour at one time can end up being lauded at the next.

I think perhaps that you need to consider the messages people are trying to put across.

Ref the shooting comment. In the US it seems to be alright to shoot each other. It happens every day. It is not considered to be a bad enough thing to actually force the government to deny the right to bear arms. A right that was granted during the civil war when it was actually relevant. It was convenient and it became expedient. The fact that it now has a dire result matters little. Its acceptable collateral damage.

Ted B · #34 07-23.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grater

Armstrong is not doing anything worthwhile.

Like him or not, he brings a tremendous amount of attention and sponsorship to the Tour de France, the likes of which no other rider has done or can do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grater

He's a horrible person doing what he is doing.

Aside from the fact that he's brought more attention and funding to worthwhile charitable causes than haters do in ten lifetimes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grater

The sooner he gets caught, the better.

I wouldn't hold my breath.

nonns · #35 07-23.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by DV1976

If i told some1 back in the 30s that Al Capone wasnt a mobster they would laugh on my face. His defence was more or less what you are saying for Armstrong. It couldnt be proved that he was a mobster so he wasnt one right? Nice one.
Lordy lummee. I accept he'd doped chr*st on a bike. The problem with people who have it is for LA is they dont read. I accept he's doped. I have a problem with the fact that he hasn't been convicted.

First of all you are ignorant. Even if the 99 samples are retested and he is proven guilty he cant be convicted of anything. Its against protocol.
Aaaahh so protocol lets people get away with offences and cheating. Superb.

Secondly, the tests arent foolproof. No they dont give "false positives" but its easy for some1 with the resources to manipulate the samples and their body chemistry to avoid detection. If you didnt know that then you have some reading to do.
This I know. I have read it numerous times already not just on these forums.

Third its clear that UCI dont want to confront the problem. Not only UCI, IOC as well. Pound was portrayed as a maniac with a grudge to bear for his hard stance but he was the only one that tried to do something.
Quite. The problem lies with the process and the organisations. Once they get their act together we're in with a chance.

You have to be stupid to think that what you see is possible without the aid of PEDs. Not only in cycling but in all professional sports. In any sport. You may want to believe it and its your right to do so but you are stupid for doing so because the evidence for the contrary is out there. It may not be enough to convict people in a sports court but its more than enough for any logical person to see the truth.

Stupid of course I'm stupid. I still watch sports which I know to be rife with drug takign. I'm, wasting my time on this forum talking to other fools who also know this.

When you have exercise physiologists with PhDs, hundreds of publications and years of experience telling you that the physiological differences between champions are miniscule and then one goes and destroys the rest who are doped to the gills then the only logical conclusion is that he cheats too. If you choose to ignore it there is something wrong with you.

In what way have I ignored it? I accept it. I've said let's consider that all these people are doping as you can't seperate those that do from those that don't right now.

As for my defence of LA it strikes me that the LA haters are very convinced that he is the one doping. That he can do no right. The guy isn't perfect. He might dope. but to suggest that he takes blood money is a bit much. Further to rubbish his performances in the context of all the other dopers he was competing against is decidedly one sided. To say that he does nothing worthwhile flies in the face of the charity work he does and the good works he has done (and whilst the LA haters might not like it he has done good work and given many people hope). The problem I have is that people are biased both ways.

I do not think its possible for LA to buy and control cycling Inc. He must have something that make so many people support him.
To say that he should gain nothing form the work he's done is totally unfair. Why shouldn't he get good publicity for doing charity work.
That he has been a cheat. Yes ok one of many but the vitriole that is spouted about the guy is out of all proportion.

My comments do not exonerate his doping. That there is evidence. Well hey according to the sources yes. That the authorities wish to pursue it well hey no thats not protocol. Lets let Al capone off because of protocol shall we.

Obvisouly you have the opinion that LA is a siubhuman with no morals.

I regard him as a great champion with a number of defects and character flaws. I wish I'd achieved as much as he has and for that I admire him.

Mansmind · #36 07-23.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by nonns

Actually you're wrong and I did think.

Ref the shooting comment. In the US it seems to be alright to shoot each other. It happens every day. It is not considered to be a bad enough thing to actually force the government to deny the right to bear arms. A right that was granted during the civil war when it was actually relevant. It was convenient and it became expedient. The fact that it now has a dire result matters little. Its acceptable collateral damage.

The Bill of Rights happened long before the civil war. The right to bear arms has more to do with the country (and government) belonging to the people as opposed to the other way around...which can easily happen if you don't have that right.

Of course people get shot every day, but making firearms illegal won't affect that at all. The vast majority of murder occurs with illegal weapons anyway. A criminal couldn't care less if he's using an illegal gun vs. a legal one.

Ted B · #37 07-23.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by nonns

... it strikes me that the LA haters are very convinced that he is the one doping. That he can do no right.

They've made up their minds regardless, simply because they're annoyed by the fact that he wins, and throwing stones makes them feel better about their own inadequacies.

LA isn't perfect, and he shouldn't be expected to be as such. He's contributed a great deal to the sport and continues to do so, like him or not.

Personally, I find Vino the easiest to dislike. I feel his suspension should have been longer, but I'm trying to be open minded.

DV1976 · #38 07-23.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by nonns

In what way have I ignored it? I accept it. I've said let's consider that all these people are doping as you can't seperate those that do from those that don't right now.

As for my defence of LA it strikes me that the LA haters are very convinced that he is the one doping. That he can do no right. The guy isn't perfect. He might dope. but to suggest that he takes blood money is a bit much. Further to rubbish his performances in the context of all the other dopers he was competing against is decidedly one sided. To say that he does nothing worthwhile flies in the face of the charity work he does and the good works he has done (and whilst the LA haters might not like it he has done good work and given many people hope). The problem I have is that people are biased both ways.

I do not think its possible for LA to buy and control cycling Inc. He must have something that make so many people support him.
To say that he should gain nothing form the work he's done is totally unfair. Why shouldn't he get good publicity for doing charity work.
That he has been a cheat. Yes ok one of many but the vitriole that is spouted about the guy is out of all proportion.

My comments do not exonerate his doping. That there is evidence. Well hey according to the sources yes. That the authorities wish to pursue it well hey no thats not protocol. Lets let Al capone off because of protocol shall we.

Obvisouly you have the opinion that LA is a siubhuman with no morals.

I regard him as a great champion with a number of defects and character flaws. I wish I'd achieved as much as he has and for that I admire him.

Just to clarify something. I used second person to generalize not to attack you specifically. I am sorry if it came across like that. I did quote you but i didnt reply specifically to you. It was a general argument. I dont think you are stupid or anything and the only thing that I really disagree with you and feel strongly about it is that perception defines morality and we should accept it. Even if they all dope our stance is that all should be banned for life. Cheating cannot be acceptable, because if it does become then it will become morally justified. Alas if this happens, LA will be the least of our problems.

swampy1970 · #39 07-23.-2009

You all sound like a bunch of old haggared housewives who haven't been laid in years.

Call the fecking whambulance will you...

Top story of the day:

Contadraft gets a motorpaced victory in TT.

Cancellara says motorcycles helped Contador - VeloNews

"(Contador) had two gendarmes motorcycle right in front of him,” Cancellara told VeloNews. “When I saw the time differences to Wiggins, I knew it was going to be close. When you watch, at the front, when you have two (motor) bikes, I don’t say it’s done. When I saw those motorbikes very close while watching on television, then I think, OK, then it’s over.”
Cancellara started 77th at 1:42 p.m. and set the early fast time 48:33, which stood until the very last rider on course – Contador – nipped by just three seconds.
Cancellara shook his head in disbelief as two French police motorcycles drove ahead of Contador through a sea of cheering fans. The big Swiss time trial specialist wasn’t making excuses, but he said the two bikes would provide an advantage that might have tipped the odds in Contador’s favor."

... now go back to bitching about doping and sounding like daddy took your iPhone, Barbies and "My Little Pony" toys away.

guncha · #40 07-23.-2009

I am very disappointed with today's stage. I know that they all dope but Condator should have never won an ITT in Tour de France. I hate unreal performances when a rider who should never win mountaintop finish does it or a rider who should never win ITT does it. I also found it ridiculous when Heras showed phenomenal result in ITT in his last Vuelta and got disqualified afterwards.
This tour has lost the sense of reality after today's stage. Contador who have been a hero to me if he had lost 1 min or 1 min 30 sec to Cancellara. I have never wished something bad to anyone but it will fair if Contador will get DQ some day.

nonns · #41 07-23.-2009

Taking my iphone and barbie doll away was heartless.

Errrrrr.......

nonns · #42 07-23.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by DV1976

Just to clarify something. I used second person to generalize not to attack you specifically. I am sorry if it came across like that. I did quote you but i didnt reply specifically to you. It was a general argument. I dont think you are stupid or anything and the only thing that I really disagree with you and feel strongly about it is that perception defines morality and we should accept it. Even if they all dope our stance is that all should be banned for life. Cheating cannot be acceptable, because if it does become then it will become morally justified. Alas if this happens, LA will be the least of our problems.

Fair do's. I enjoy the conversation. Just don't feel that because I happen to take different stance that I'm a dumsh.

BTW For wahat its worth I happen to agree that if there was some way to catch and convict all the dopers then they should all be banned for life. The fact that they're not caught doesn't make it right to do it.

My point was that ultimately if not caught and convicted its as good as not being caught so it all becomes a bit pointless. I'm not certain that the specific riders are more to blame that the apparatus which is failing to deal with them.

nonns · #43 07-23.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mansmind

The Bill of Rights happened long before the civil war. The right to bear arms has more to do with the country (and government) belonging to the people as opposed to the other way around...which can easily happen if you don't have that right.

Of course people get shot every day, but making firearms illegal won't affect that at all. The vast majority of murder occurs with illegal weapons anyway. A criminal couldn't care less if he's using an illegal gun vs. a legal one.

Actually I think you'll find it has helped. Banning guns and making them difficult to get hold of has ensured that the UK doesn't have huge death rates due to gun crime. Likewise most of europe. The US obviously fails to see any sort of connection and thus has the deaths. That said this is a conversational area that is entirely irrelevant (well not entirely as I believe two riders got shot) but lets not go down this path. Seemingly the denizens of this forum manage to insult each other enough without bringing guns into it.

And whilst I concede that I wascareless and lazy about the dates of the particular US laws. Hey I last studied any sort of US history a long time ago and can't remember much. The fact remains that the rights were granted when Law and Order were still developing (the world was a rougher and harsher place), communications weren't so good and it was more necessary for people to be self sufficent and to be able to defend themselves. The point is the law is out of date and whatever its original intention it fails to meet the needs of the modern world.

nonns · #44 07-23.-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by swampy1970

You all sound like a bunch of old haggared housewives who haven't been laid in years.

Call the fecking whambulance will you...

Top story of the day:

Contadraft gets a motorpaced victory in TT.

Cancellara says motorcycles helped Contador - VeloNews

"(Contador) had two gendarmes motorcycle right in front of him,” Cancellara told VeloNews. “When I saw the time differences to Wiggins, I knew it was going to be close. When you watch, at the front, when you have two (motor) bikes, I don’t say it’s done. When I saw those motorbikes very close while watching on television, then I think, OK, then it’s over.”
Cancellara started 77th at 1:42 p.m. and set the early fast time 48:33, which stood until the very last rider on course – Contador – nipped by just three seconds.
Cancellara shook his head in disbelief as two French police motorcycles drove ahead of Contador through a sea of cheering fans. The big Swiss time trial specialist wasn’t making excuses, but he said the two bikes would provide an advantage that might have tipped the odds in Contador’s favor."

... now go back to bitching about doping and sounding like daddy took your iPhone, Barbies and "My Little Pony" toys away.

Blimey. Contador has additional help. 1000cc's of it. Thats where the drug confusion comes in you see. Its not about drugs its motorcycles.

All is clear.

Scotttri · #45 07-23.-2009

Well im suprised contador could even stand with the amount of drugs he clearly has to be on. I know people can make improvements in disciplines with practice, but going from very average to winning a stage like that is a crock of sh#t. I hope he does get caught!!!

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