Downhill speeds...or: I must be getting old - Page 2

In article <7j0Ec.150584$j24.96347@twister.nyroc.rr.com>,
fhall1 @twcny.rr.com says...
> Please be gentle and no laughing...looking for inputs from
> those more experienced...
>
> Background: Just started seriously road riding this year
> on a Trek 1500, after mostly trail (packed stone dust
> fairly flat) riding on a Gary Fisher hybrid. Got the road
> bike about 3 weeks ago and have been cruising around, a
> lot of flat roads, but some minor climbs and descents.
>
> Anyway, yesterday I figured I'd change up my route and
> take a certain road I knew had a pretty good hill on it.
> Not wanting to climb the hill, I made the route so it went
> down the hill. Long story short, it's a pretty good hill
> and even with a decent headwind according the the ol'
> computer I was doing about 35 mph down the hill for a good
> three plus minutes. Needless to say, the knuckles were
> white from hanging on for dear life and all I could

To help you keep good control at high speeds, you need to
relax your grip a bit, and put a little more weight on
the pedals (don't lift yourself completely off the
saddle, though).

> picture was having a dog (or something) jump out at me, or
> getting a blow out, and me going ass over teakettle down
> the hill. Of course, I made it to the bottom with no
> incidents and went about the rest of my ride.
>
> Back when I was 11 or 12 I probably would have thought
> that was really cool and would have been pedaling all the
> way to see how much faster I could go...now that I'm 47 I
> worry more about self preservation I guess. So my question
> is, with more descents under my belt will 30+ mph
> downhills not even phase me? Or will I be a wuss the rest
> of my biking days? I know the

You'll get used to it. A lady who rides in our Tuesday night
group has the same problem, and she's been getting much more
relaxed as we ride more hills with her. We've finally gotten
her to stay off the brakes on the shorter hills. She still
won't tuck and try for the maximum possible speed, but
staying off the brakes is a good first step.

> pro racers are hitting what - 60 mph sometimes (or more) -
> so I'm not even in that league...watching the OLN special
> on Lance's 5 wins last night they pointed out he averaged
> about 33 mph during his time trials...which tells me he's
> flying at some points...
>
> Thanks for listening (reading)

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Fred Hall wrote:

> Back when I was 11 or 12 I probably would have thought
> that was really cool and would have been pedaling all the
> way to see how much faster I could go...now that I'm 47 I
> worry more about self preservation I guess. So my question
> is, with more descents under my belt will 30+ mph
> downhills not even phase me? Or will I be a wuss the rest
> of my biking days?

When I was about 15, I wiped out face first at over 40 mph
down a steep hill. The worst part was being concious and
seeing all that blood and flesh, then lying paralyzed as my
heart stopped and someone started CPR.

About 15 years later, I couldn't go much over 20 mph without
my face tingling at the onset of panic. I stopped riding for
about 10 years after a leg and back injury.

I started riding again last year. Most of the fear has since
gone and I regularly pass 40 mph downhill. Last week I
reached 54 mph.

Great link...thanks

<jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
news:fK5Ec.19477$Fo4.257542@typhoon.sonic.net...
> Fred Hall writes:
>
> > Background: Just started seriously road riding this year
> > on a Trek 1500, after mostly trail (packed stone dust
> > fairly flat) riding on a Gary Fisher hybrid. Got the
> > road bike about 3 weeks ago and have been cruising
> > around, a lot of flat roads, but some minor climbs and
> > descents.
>
> > Anyway, yesterday I figured I'd change up my route and
> > take a certain road I knew had a pretty good hill on it.
> > Not wanting to climb the hill, I made the route so it
> > went down the hill. Long story short, it's a pretty good
> > hill and even with a decent headwind according the the
> > ol' computer I was doing about 35 mph down the hill for
> > a good three plus minutes. Needless to say, the knuckles
> > were white from hanging on for dear life and all I could
> > picture was having a dog (or something) jump out at me,
> > or getting a blow out, and me going ass over teakettle
> > down the hill. Of course, I made it to the bottom with
> > no incidents and went about the rest of my ride.
>
> Don't descend any faster than you feel is safe. Pressing
> top speed descents is a good way to get hurt, badly. Most
> fast descenders I know, including myself, took a lot of
> spills when young and rebounding. I don't recommend trying
> to do that after age 25 or so. Some people can do it but
> learning a new mother tongue like a native is easier than
> riding close to the limit of traction, something that is
> necessary to descend fast.
>
> How it is done is analytical, but the rider must be sure
> of the limits:
>
> http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/9.15.html
>
> Jobst Brandt jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

In the link, it says that:
"Some riders believe that sticking the knee out or leaning the body away from the bicycle, improves cornering. Sticking out a knee is the same thing that riders without cleats do when they stick out a foot in dirt track motorcycle fashion. On paved roads this is a useless but reassuring gesture that, on uneven roads, even degrades control. Any body weight that is not centered over the bicycle (leaning the bike or sticking out a knee) puts a side load on the bicycle, and side loads cause steering motions over uneven road. Getting weight off the saddle is also made more difficult by such maneuvers."

So how does one "correctly" corner? Leaning with the bike means that the body weight is not centered over the bicycle. Yet, attempting to lean away from the bicycle (which I assume would mean attempting to stay as upright as possible) is also discouraged. Or, more generally, what is the best method to corner (at high speeds)?

Thanks to everyone for sharing your thoughts and
experiences...luckily this road is well paved and dead
straight, so I don't have to worry about high speed
cornering. The only thing bad about it is it has the
long, fast (for
me)descent, then kind of flattens out for a couple hundred
yards (where I can collect myself) and then goes into
another descent, not quite as steep or long as the first,
but the problem is it ends at a "T" intersection with a
stop sign, so I pretty much have to ride the brakes all
the way down to ensure I can actually stop at the bottom
and to try to keep them from overheating by having to
apply too much pressure for too long if I wait until I
get closer to the stop sign.

It has rained here the last 2 nights, so I haven't had the
chance to tackle it again and see if it seems less
intimidating the second time around, but hopefully as a lot
of you suggest, I'll get used to it.

"Fred Hall" <fhall1@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:7j0Ec.150584$j24.96347@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> Please be gentle and no laughing...looking for inputs from
> those more experienced...
>
> Background: Just started seriously road riding this year
> on a Trek 1500, after mostly trail (packed stone dust
> fairly flat) riding on a Gary Fisher hybrid. Got the road
> bike about 3 weeks ago and have been cruising
around,
> a lot of flat roads, but some minor climbs and descents.
>
> Anyway, yesterday I figured I'd change up my route and
> take a certain road
I
> knew had a pretty good hill on it. Not wanting to climb
> the hill, I made the route so it went down the hill. Long
> story short, it's a pretty good hill and even with a
> decent headwind according the the ol' computer I was doing
> about 35 mph down the hill for a good three plus minutes.
> Needless
to
> say, the knuckles were white from hanging on for dear life
> and all I could picture was having a dog (or something)
> jump out at me, or getting a blow out, and me going ass
> over teakettle down the hill. Of course, I made it
to
> the bottom with no incidents and went about the rest of
> my ride.
>
> Back when I was 11 or 12 I probably would have thought
> that was really
cool
> and would have been pedaling all the way to see how much
> faster I could go...now that I'm 47 I worry more about
> self preservation I guess. So my question is, with more
> descents under my belt will 30+ mph downhills not even
> phase me? Or will I be a wuss the rest of my biking
> days? I know
the
> pro racers are hitting what - 60 mph sometimes (or more) -
> so I'm not even in that league...watching the OLN special
> on Lance's 5 wins last night
they
> pointed out he averaged about 33 mph during his time
> trials...which tells
me
> he's flying at some points...
>
> Thanks for listening (reading)

keydates wrote:

> So how does one "correctly" corner? Leaning with the bike
> means that the body weight is not centered over the
> bicycle. Yet, attempting to lean away from the bicycle
> (which I assume would mean attempting to stay as upright
> as possible) is also discouraged. Or, more generally, what
> is the best method to corner (at high speeds)?

The best way to corner is to keep your body in line with the
bicycle, with no extraneous movements. In other words, when
the bicycle tilts, you go with it. But there is no leaning
to be done. As far as you and the bike are concerned,
straight down is always where the tire meets the road. It's
the same sensation as riding in an airplane that's turning,
where straight down is through the floor of the plane.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

"Terry Morse" wrote: The best way to corner is to keep your
body in line with the bicycle, with no extraneous movements.
In other words, when the bicycle tilts, you go with it. But
there is no leaning to be done. ^^^^^^^^^^^ This is correct,
and it is what you will do if you don't get wound up in too
much "thinking." The body weight, together with the
centrifugal force form a vector that must go through the
line of contact of the tires with the road. Any fooling
around you do with the angles may change the inclination of
the tires to the road, but the vector still has to go
through that line of contact, or you will not be stable.

Hunrobe <hunrobe@aol.com> wrote:
>>David Reuteler reuteler@visi.com
> wrote in part:
>
>> if you drag your brakes to keep a speed you're
>> comfortable with you run the risk of overheating. that's
>> only applicable on serious descents but that's where the
>> problem manifests itself most strongly anyway and 30mph
>> just ain't that fast on a descent.
>
> This is all true but doesn't really address what the OP
> was asking, "Does everyone get used to higher speeds?".
> That was the question I was addressing, not "What are some
> of the mechanical aspects of descending at speed?". And
> no, 30 mph ain't that fast.... :-)

well, it's a bit more than just a mechanical aspect of
descending at speed. blindly telling someone to slow to a
comfortable speed w/o that little bit of info is potentially
dangerous.

anyway, a little more context from the OP would be
useful. like, for instance does he live in kansas or
western colorado.
--
david reuteler reuteler@visi.com

someone writes anonymously:

> In the link, it says that: "Some riders believe that
> sticking the knee out or leaning the body away from the
> bicycle, improves cornering. Sticking out a knee is the
> same thing that riders without cleats do when they stick
> out a foot in dirt track motorcycle fashion. On paved
> roads this is a useless but reassuring gesture that, on
> uneven roads, even degrades control. Any body weight that
> is not centered over the bicycle (leaning the bike or
> sticking out a knee) puts a side load on the bicycle, and
> side loads cause steering motions over uneven road.
> Getting weight off the saddle is also made more difficult
> by such maneuvers."

What is unclear about that? Let's get specific.

> So how does one "correctly" corner? Leaning with the bike
> means that the body weight is not centered over the
> bicycle.

If you lean with the bicycle, then you are centered over
the bicycle!

> Yet, attempting to lean away from the bicycle (which I
> assume would mean attempting to stay as upright as
> possible) is also discouraged. Or, more generally, what is
> the best method to corner (at high speeds)?

I think you should read this:

http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/9.15.html

More carefully.

Jobst Brandt jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

Bob Hunt writes:

>> If you drag your brakes to keep a speed you're
>> comfortable with you run the risk of overheating. That's
>> only applicable on serious descents but that's where the
>> problem manifests itself most strongly anyway and 30mph
>> just ain't that fast on a descent.

> This is all true but doesn't really address what the OP
> was asking, "Does everyone get used to higher speeds?".
> That was the question I was addressing, not "What are some
> of the mechanical aspects of descending at speed?". And
> no, 30 mph ain't that fast... :-)

That depends on the road. I think you'll agree that on many
mountain roads, cornering at 30mph is fast and faster than
is comfortable to land on (or off) the pavement. Even in
criterium racing 30mph is fast depending on the course. I
think if you consider a descent like those in the Alps
Gallery, or this one in particular:

http://tinyurl.com/pd86

You don't get over 30mph even in some of the runs that
appear somewhat straight. Just the kinks in the "straight"
runs demand maximum lean angle below that speed. In
contrast, a close to 40mph curve such as this:

http://tinyurl.com/2gbsj

is faster than I have seen anybody else take this curve.
It's the place where, this and the following two curves,
opens large gaps to the "stick out the knee" riders. You may
be visualizing straight roads rather than curves.

Jobst Brandt jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

David Reuteler writes:

>>> If you drag your brakes to keep a speed you're
>>> comfortable with you run the risk of overheating. That's
>>> only applicable on serious descents but that's where the
>>> problem manifests itself most strongly anyway and 30mph
>>> just ain't that fast on a descent.

>> This is all true but doesn't really address what the OP
>> was asking, "Does everyone get used to higher speeds?".
>> That was the question I was addressing, not "What are
>> some of the mechanical aspects of descending at speed?".
>> And no, 30 mph ain't that fast.... :-)

> Well, it's a bit more than just a mechanical aspect of
> descending at speed. Blindly telling someone to slow to a
> comfortable speed w/o that little bit of info is
> potentially dangerous.

> Anyway, a little more context from the OP would be useful.
> Like, for instance does he live in Kansas or western
> Colorado.

That makes no difference. The mechanics of it are the same
and I am sure that riding a criterium in Kansas (if you
like( is the same as riding one in Milano (I).

Maybe you can explain what is potentially dangerous about
slowing to a pace that feels safer.

Another point worth mentioning is that I have had enough
riders crash behind me to believe they probably had no
idea with how little margin I was descending nor that I
wasn't fully loading the the saddle as I rolled over
poorer traction at the maximum lean angle that I though
possible. Don't follow a faster rider and assume that
because you think you are doing the same thing and that
therefore, you are safe.

Jobst Brandt jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Bob Hunt writes:
>> This is all true but doesn't really address what the OP
>> was asking, "Does everyone get used to higher speeds?".
>> That was the question I was addressing, not "What are
>> some of the mechanical aspects of descending at speed?".
>> And no, 30 mph ain't that fast... :-)
>
> That depends on the road. I think you'll agree that on
> many mountain roads, cornering at 30mph is fast and faster
> than is comfortable to land on (or off) the pavement. Even
> in criterium racing 30mph is fast depending on the course.
> I think if you consider a descent like those in the Alps
> Gallery, or this one in particular:

if by off the pavement you mean over the jersey barrier and
down the 1,000 foot ravine on the other side then 25mph can
indeed be quite scary esp. on switchback descents.
--
david reuteler reuteler@visi.com

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>> Anyway, a little more context from the OP would be
>> useful. Like, for instance does he live in Kansas or
>> western Colorado.
>
> That makes no difference. The mechanics of it are the same
> and I am sure that riding a criterium in Kansas (if you
> like( is the same as riding one in Milano (I).

> Maybe you can explain what is potentially dangerous about
> slowing to a pace that feels safer.

i am under the impression that taking an 18 mile steep
mountain descent (like i have in my backyard so to speak)
with my brakes on the whole way to keep me at a
comfortable 13mph may not be a good idea w/r/t overheating
my brake pads.

that situation is not likely to affect someone in kansas and
your brakes aren't likely to fade for that reason in a crit
no matter your locale.

> Another point worth mentioning is that I have had enough
> riders crash behind me to believe they probably had no
> idea with how little margin I was descending nor that I
> wasn't fully loading the the saddle as I rolled over
> poorer traction at the maximum lean angle that I though
> possible. Don't follow a faster rider and assume that
> because you think you are doing the same thing and that
> therefore, you are safe.

know your ability and know your limits.
--
david reuteler reuteler@visi.com

David Reuteler wrote:

> i am under the impression that taking an 18 mile steep
> mountain descent (like i have in my backyard so to speak)

Lucky bastard.

--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

In article <1EnEc.7045$_K6.1616@fe26.usenetserver.com>, usenet-
forum@cyclingforums.com says...
> In the link, it says that: "Some riders believe that
> sticking the knee out or leaning the body away from the
> bicycle, improves cornering. Sticking out a knee is the
> same thing that riders without cleats do when they stick
> out a foot in dirt track motorcycle fashion. On paved
> roads this is a useless but reassuring gesture that, on
> uneven roads, even degrades control. Any body weight that
> is not centered over the bicycle (leaning the bike or
> sticking out a knee) puts a side load on the bicycle, and
> side loads cause steering motions over uneven road.
> Getting weight off the saddle is also made more difficult
> by such maneuvers."
>
> So how does one "correctly" corner? Leaning with the bike
> means that the body weight is not centered over the
> bicycle. Yet, attempting to lean away from the bicycle
> (which I assume would mean attempting to stay as upright
> as possible) is also discouraged. Or, more generally, what
> is the best method to corner (at high speeds)?

You lean with the bike. That way, the line of application of
your weight to the road goes directly through the bike.

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in
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