Do bicycles and cars mix?

Well, it seems the combination of undertrained, careless drivers and bicycles don't mix.
Some--probably sponsored by GM--claim they do, but the following articles illustrates that roads
remain a dangerous jungle--for the little animals...

Car slams into 20 cyclists Three of the 13 hospitalized are reported in serious condition. No
charges have been filed. By CHRIS TISCH, Times Staff Writer © St. Petersburg Times published
July 7, 2003

ST. PETERSBURG - It was a beautiful Sunday morning, and several dozen bicyclists moved two abreast
like a caterpillar through the residential streets of St. Petersburg.

Kip Vosburgh was near the back of the pack when he heard screams, looked up and saw a Lincoln
Continental mowing down the cyclists, spraying them over the hood, onto the street and into
the gutter.

"It was almost like Moses and the Red Sea was parting," Vosburgh said. "Then I was looking right at
the grille of the car."

Vosburgh was flipped over the hood and into the gutter, his leg and arm broken.

He was one of about 20 cyclists hit, 13 of of whom were hospitalized. Three were in serious
condition Sunday night. The others were in fair condition or were treated and released.

The driver, Joseph D. Pastore, 60, of Pinellas Park, told police he was trying to pass another car
when he plowed into the line of bikes. Police are investigating whether Pastore, who carried a cane
and has disability license plates, was impaired or suffered from a medical condition.

Pastore, who was released from Ed White Hospital after the crash, declined to speak to reporters. No
charges were filed, though an investigation continues.

Two of Pastore's neighbors said he passed out in his car Friday. Neighbor Stephenie Payne said she
was pulling out of her driveway and saw him.

"I backed up to see if he was okay," she said. "Then he woke up."

The crash occurred about 8:40 a.m. on 30th Avenue N just west of 53rd Street, a thin ribbon of
residential street.

The 30 to 40 cyclists, many with the St. Petersburg Bike Club or the St. Pete Mad Dog Triathlon
Club, were pedaling west. They had met at the main library about 10 minutes earlier and were on a
trip that takes them to Clearwater Beach and back through the island cities. Most were going less
than 20 mph.

"Everybody was just chatting," said Debra Ryder, out for her first ride with the group.

The cyclists have taken the route every Sunday for many years. They have close calls with motorists
from time to time, but nothing similar to what happened Sunday.

Witnesses said the eastbound Continental veered toward the cyclists, cutting into the group head-on
about halfway through their ranks, then dispatching the cyclists like dominoes.

"There's no way he could not have seen us," Ryder said. "He went to pass, he accelerated and he
never slowed down."

While cyclists were tumbled and tossed, the car sheared through their bikes, swallowing them
underneath and snapping them in pieces.

Most of the injured were in the inside line near the curb. Cyclist Sam Miller was in the outside
line pedaling next to a woman taking the Sunday ride for the first time. When Miller saw the car
chucking cyclists, he wrenched his bike left. The car whipped past him, missing by inches. But it
struck the woman.

"There was nowhere to go. She went right into it. You didn't have much time to think,"
Miller, 43, said.

Cyclists slammed into the car's windshield, cracking it into a spider web of glass. Bike wheels and
handlebars went spinning. Some riders were thrown so forcefully off their cycles that their shoes
remained in the pedals.

"Men and women were screaming, bodies were flying," Ryder said. "A wheel went flying right in front
of me. It was like an explosion. There were bicycle parts everywhere, blood everywhere."

Miller estimated the car was going 30 mph. The car left no skid marks.

The car ran over a curb, the bikes underneath it scraping against the sidewalk, eventually stopping
it. One neighbor inside his house thought a car had knocked over garbage cans. Another said it
sounded like a car thumping fence posts.

Neighbors reported hearing Pastore say a variety of things.

"He said, "I must have hit something,' " said Roy Luers, whose yard was the car's final resting
place. "He was out of it. He didn't know."

Another said Pastore told her something had flown into his eye. Another saw a diabetic necklace
dangling from his neck.

Pastore told police he tried to pass another car, even though he was traveling in a no-pass zone.
Police want to find the other motorist, who was driving an older-model, light-colored, foreign-made
car. That motorist is not facing charges, police said.

Neighbors and cyclists with cell phones dialed 911 while tending to the wounded. Ten ambulances
were dispatched. Ryder tended to a man with serious leg and pelvis injuries. His helmet was split
down the back.

Two cyclists were taken by helicopter to Bayfront Medical Center. Others were taken by ambulance to
Bayfront, Northside Hospital and St. Anthony's Hospital.

The three in serious condition at Bayfront were David Arnold, Maria Riquet and Ronald Diner, a
hospital spokesman said. Their ages and addresses were not available.

Police said the cyclists were wearing helmets. According to state law, bicycling two abreast is
legal; three abreast is not.

Vosburgh, 56, who began seriously cycling a few years ago, said he planned a bike trip with his
wife, Carol Jean, in Nova Scotia in August.

When she arrived at the hospital, he immediately asked about his bike, a red titanium Serrota
costing $6,000. She said it was in pieces.

The cyclists said their group is tight-knit. The St. Petersburg Bike Club has about 260 members,
while the Mad Dog group has about 800 local members.

"That's why we travel in groups. There's safety in numbers," Carol Jean Vosburgh said.

Despite the accident, the cyclists said they would continue to ride.

"I have no intention of not going back," Vosburgh said from his hospital bed. "In life, I'd rather
wear out than rust out."

http://webspawner.com/users/bikeforpeace

donquijote1111@yahoo.com (Don Quijote) wrote in message
news:<d82348eb.0307101914.204c50b1@posting.google.com>...
> "Everybody was just chatting," said Debra Ryder, out for her first ride with the group.

Oh, I already know I'm going to get lambasted by the cyclists for this comment, but here it
is anyway.

Without taking anything away from the egregious actions of the automobile driver, perhaps a lot of
the cyclists could have avoided injury if they'd been paying better attention themselves. Riding in
large groups tends to become more of a social function and less of a cycling one. If this had been a
single bicyclist, perhaps the rider would have been alert enought to avoid the oncoming car.

In article <d82348eb.0307101914.204c50b1@posting.google.com>, Don Quijote
<donquijote1111@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Well, it seems the combination of undertrained, careless drivers and bicycles don't mix.
>Some--probably sponsored by GM--claim they do, but the following articles illustrates that roads
>remain a dangerous jungle--for the little animals...
>
>
>Car slams into 20 cyclists Three of the 13 hospitalized are reported in serious condition. No
>charges have been filed. By CHRIS TISCH, Times Staff Writer © St. Petersburg Times published
>July 7, 2003
>
>ST. PETERSBURG - It was a beautiful Sunday morning, and several dozen bicyclists moved two abreast
>like a caterpillar through the residential streets of St. Petersburg.
>
One of the reasons why the death rate on US highways is so much lower than that of Europe is
that we have had the courage to ban bicycles from major roads. The two modes of traffic never
mix at all.

--
George Conklin, Durham, NC: Medicare For All Ages If HMOs ran the post office, the AMA (American
Mail Association) would declare that getting mail was a privilege, not a right and 43 million
Americans would get no mail delivery.

You are another practitioner of the cyclist inferiority superstition. The conspiracy of ignorance
masquerades as common sense.

"P.J. Hartman" <pjhartman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2ef7eb98.0307110401.79f5dc42@posting.google.com...
> donquijote1111@yahoo.com (Don Quijote) wrote in message
news:<d82348eb.0307101914.204c50b1@posting.google.com>...
> > "Everybody was just chatting," said Debra Ryder, out for her first ride with the group.
>
> Oh, I already know I'm going to get lambasted by the cyclists for this comment, but here it
> is anyway.
>
> Without taking anything away from the egregious actions of the automobile driver, perhaps a lot
> of the cyclists could have avoided injury if they'd been paying better attention themselves.
> Riding in large groups tends to become more of a social function and less of a cycling one. If
> this had been a single bicyclist, perhaps the rider would have been alert enought to avoid the
> oncoming car.

The roads are even more dangerous for the "big animals". Many many more people die every day on the
roads in cars and SUVs than on bicycles.

Don Quijote wrote
> roads remain a dangerous jungle--for the little animals...

I use both "big" and "little" on the roads -- sometimes car, sometimes bicycle. I've never seen
credible statistical evidence that competent adults riding a bicycle on the roads are more at risk
than competent adults driving a car on the roads.

> it seems the combination of undertrained, careless drivers and bicycles don't mix.

Undertrained, careless or impaired drivers and other _cars_ don't mix either.

The sad bicycle-car collision stories may get more press coverage, but that doesn't prove anything
about actual risk. There's many many more sad stories about car drivers crossing over the line and
hitting people in oncoming _cars_.

Yes, I'm more vulnerable on a bicycle than inside a car. So I ride slower and more carefully, and I
get more choosy about exactly when and where and how.

Life is full of risks, and doing _anything_ on the public roads is full of lots of big risks. I
choose to take some of those risks as a "little animal" on my bicycle. This "mix" with other cars
works just as well for me on my bicycle as in my car -- I'm not looking for any special
protective help.

Let's focus instead on the real problem that all road users share: how to cut down the destruction
from careless or impaired drivers.

Ken

"(null)" wrote

One of the reasons why the death rate on US highways is so
> much lower than that of Europe is that we have had the courage to ban bicycles from major roads.
> The two modes of traffic never mix at all.
>
>
>
> --
> George Conklin, Durham, NC: Medicare For All Ages If HMOs ran the post office, the AMA (American
> Mail Association) would declare that getting mail was a privilege, not a right and 43 million
> Americans would get no mail delivery.
>

Your statement is one of the more blatant examples of ignorance, stupidity and bull**** that I have
seen on USENET.

1. Define major roads. Bicycles are illegal on divided, limited access highways (Interstate
highways, etc.) in most of the US, the exceptions being parts of the Rocky Mountain West. They
are equally illegal on divided, limited access highways (autobahns, autoroutes, motorways, etc.)
in every European country that I know of. Where's the difference between the US and Europe?

2. In every US state, bicycles are classified as vehicles with the same rights and responsibilities
as cars, with a few allowances made for the inherent limitations of a human powered vehicle, just
as allowances are made for the inherent limitations of other extremely slow moving vehicles.
Unless a particular road is designated as being off limits to bicycles, a cyclist is entitled to
use that road, whether it is a major road or not.

3. When you compare the US death rate to that of Europe, to which European country are you referring
? You are aware, I hope, that Europe consists of more than one country? Any variations in traffic
fatality rates between the US and various European countries is due to weather, road conditions,
traffic volume, and driver behaviour , not to the presence or absence of bicycles on those roads.

Bicycles are no more "banned from major roads" in the US than they are in any country in Europe.
Please do a little research before you make a horse's ass of yourself again.
--
mark

> One of the reasons why the death rate on US highways is so much lower than that of Europe is
> that we have had the courage to ban bicycles from major roads. The two modes of traffic never
> mix at all.

Sorry, I have to disagree on the point that bicycles should be banned from major roads.

My UK experience is of cycling on major roads *as is my right over here* and finding it a generally
enjoyable experience and I've not had a run-in with a vehicle. Yes, there are some idiots behind the
wheels of motorised transport, but on the whole, we mix well and safely - but we cyclists have to
fight to have it so. Many European countries have a wonderful culture of *respecting* and
*encouraging* cycling - more so than here in the UK. I'm off to Paris for the last stage of Le Tour
and then on to germany to cycle part of the Rhine cycle route and I can't wait to get there! A
friend of mine has cycled the part of the Rhine I'm going to and tells me it's cycling heaven
compared to the Uk as cycling is an accepted and normal part of life.

I don't know what the USA experience is like as I've never driven or cycled there, but I do know I
would *loathe* being in a situation where the car was so paramount that non-motorised methods of
getting from A to B was discouraged or banned the way it *appears* to be in the States. I can see
the UK heading that way and I will resist it all I can!

Cheers, helen s

~~~~~~~~~~
This is sent from a redundant email Mail sent to it is dumped My correct one can be gleaned from
h$**$*$el$**e$n$**$d$**$o$*$t**$$s$**$im$mo$ns*@a$**o$l.c$$*o$*m*$ by getting rid of the
overdependence on money and fame
~~~~~~~~~~

"wafflyDIRTYcatLITTERhcsBOX" wrote
>
> Sorry, I have to disagree on the point that bicycles should be banned from major roads.
>
> My UK experience is of cycling on major roads *as is my right over here*
and
> finding it a generally enjoyable experience and I've not had a run-in with
a
> vehicle. Yes, there are some idiots behind the wheels of motorised
transport,
> but on the whole, we mix well and safely - but we cyclists have to fight
to
> have it so. Many European countries have a wonderful culture of
*respecting*
> and *encouraging* cycling - more so than here in the UK. I'm off to Paris
for
> the last stage of Le Tour and then on to germany to cycle part of the
Rhine
> cycle route and I can't wait to get there! A friend of mine has cycled the
part
> of the Rhine I'm going to and tells me it's cycling heaven compared to the
Uk
> as cycling is an accepted and normal part of life.
>
> I don't know what the USA experience is like as I've never driven or
cycled
> there, but I do know I would *loathe* being in a situation where the car
was so
> paramount that non-motorised methods of getting from A to B was
discouraged or
> banned the way it *appears* to be in the States. I can see the UK heading
that
> way and I will resist it all I can!
>
> Cheers, helen s

I'm lucky enough to live in a corner of the US where cycling is an accepted and normal part of life,
and I don't plan on leaving anytime soon. I have spent time in areas where, as you describe, the car
is so paramount that non-motorised transport is discouraged or appears to be banned. You are
correct, it is a truly loathsome state of affairs, unpleasant for motorists, cyclists, and
pedestrians alike.
--
mark

"wafflyDIRTYcatLITTERhcsBOX" wrote
> >They are equally illegal on divided, limited access highways (autobahns, autoroutes, motorways,
> >etc.) in every European country that I know of. Where's the difference between the US
and
> >Europe?
>
> In the UK they are banned from motorways BUT are *not* from dual
carriageways
> and other A roads or major roads. To be banned from a normal major road
over
> here is *rare* - over here we cyclists have a *right* to be on the road
and
> drivers of motorised transport are there by *licence* - a fact a lot of motorists and cyclists
> over here tend to forget :-)
>
> Cheers, helen s

By divided, limited access highways, I meant what are called motorways in Great Britain, and
Interstate highways, freeways, etc. here in the US. Bicycles are not banned from divided roads in
the US unless the road is built like a motorway. Sorry if I wasn't completely clear.

According to law, cyclists here in the US have the same *right* to be on the road as cyclists
in the UK, and drivers of motorized transport are also there by *license*. Unfortunately,
American motorists and cyclists have at least as much trouble remembering this as their
counterparts in the UK.
--
mark

"(null)" <jeptha@shell.ntrnet.net> wrote

> >
> One of the reasons why the death rate on US highways is so much lower than that of Europe is
> that we have had the courage to ban bicycles from major roads. The two modes of traffic never
> mix at all.

Nice troll, but factually and completely incorrect.

Pete

On 11 Jul 2003, (null) wrote:

> Pete, have you done any analysis of European death rates on the highway? Does ten times more
> mean anything to you?

I'm calling your bluff, because what you're implying here doesn't match what the National Academy of
Sciences Transportation Research Board has to say on the matter. Please provide some references so
we can see these alleged ten-times-higher death rates on "European" highways.

DS

In article <FqCPa.12238$ND.1433@fe2.columbus.rr.com>, Pete <ptr@usaf.com> wrote:
>
>"(null)" <jeptha@shell.ntrnet.net> wrote
>
>> >
>> One of the reasons why the death rate on US highways is so much lower than that of Europe is
>> that we have had the courage to ban bicycles from major roads. The two modes of traffic never
>> mix at all.
>
>Nice troll, but factually and completely incorrect.
>
>Pete
>
>

Pete, have you done any analysis of European death rates on the highway? Does ten times more mean
anything to you?

--
George Conklin, Durham, NC: Medicare For All Ages If HMOs ran the post office, the AMA (American
Mail Association) would declare that getting mail was a privilege, not a right and 43 million
Americans would get no mail delivery.

"Don Quijote" <donquijote1111@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d82348eb.0307101914.204c50b1@posting.google.com...
> Well, it seems the combination of undertrained, careless drivers and bicycles don't mix.
> Some--probably sponsored by GM--claim they do, but the following articles illustrates that roads
> remain a dangerous jungle--for the little animals...
>

This is more a case of an unfit driver and an irresponsible state that continues to allow him to
possess a license and drive. I would be more inclined to blame the AARP for this than GM. This is
one person who should not be driving given the facts presented below. But of course, since
politicians bend over and spread 'em for the AARP like the $20 street whores that they are, people
like Pastore are continually allowed to prey on other road users both on bicycles and in cars.

> The driver, Joseph D. Pastore, 60, of Pinellas Park, told police he was trying to pass another car
> when he plowed into the line of bikes. Police are investigating whether Pastore, who carried a
> cane and has disability license plates, was impaired or suffered from a medical condition.
>
> Pastore, who was released from Ed White Hospital after the crash, declined to speak to reporters.
> No charges were filed, though an investigation continues.
>
> Two of Pastore's neighbors said he passed out in his car Friday. Neighbor Stephenie Payne said she
> was pulling out of her driveway and saw him.
>
> "I backed up to see if he was okay," she said. "Then he woke up."

Good Lord Almighty! No wonder driving in FL is such an adventure.
--
Paul

In article <Pine.SOL.4.44.0307111452320.3989-100000@alumni.engin.umich.edu>, Daniel J Stern
<dastern@engin.umich> writes:
> On 11 Jul 2003, (null) wrote:
>
>> Pete, have you done any analysis of European death rates on the highway? Does ten times more
>> mean anything to you?
>
> I'm calling your bluff, because what you're implying here doesn't match what the National Academy
> of Sciences Transportation Research Board has to say on the matter.

Some more hard numbers are available here: www.who.int/whr2001/2001/main/en/pdf/annex2.en.pdf

under Category III Injuries: Road Traffic Accidents.

> Please provide some references so we can see these alleged ten-times-higher death rates on
> "European" highways.

I'd like to see that, too.

cheers, Tom

--
-- Powered by FreeBSD Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn
[point] bc [point] ca

Ah! It is clear to me now! Bicycles and cars do not mix!

There is only one clear and sensible solution -- ban all motor vehicles from the roadway. It would
certainly make my commute safer and more pleasant.

Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky, MRP (cpetersky@yahoo.com)

Home of the meditative cyclist: http://home.earthlink.net/~cpetersky/Welcome.htm Singing with you
at: http://www.tiferet.net/ Books just wanna be FREE! See what I mean at:
http://bookcrossing.com/friend/Cpetersky