Another ignorant new guy question - Page 2

>You are dangerous and ignorant if you recommend one not know the feel of the bike when one is in
>the correct gear. This gear and feel is found by knowing correct cadence and the bike.

Jobst has a point when he notes that in climbs, the rider is almost always loading the knees beyond
what normally happens on the flats.

I've noticed that I can reliably get knee pain on my new commute where I did not have it before, due
to the fact (I think) of more hard accelerations off red lights than formerly.

My typical practice on the old commute was to ride in only two gears, fast and less fast... Now I
find that I've got to do a mort o' shifting to keep my knees happy.

But I'm still basically a spinner, even in traffic it's about smooth and efficient.

I'm perfectly happy at 70 rpm, and I can burst to 120 if I have to, but the stress of being outside
the power band on the low side just isn't worth it.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
the Texas Elvis"------------------
__________306.350.357.38>>cwhitman@texastwr.utaustin.edu__________

Msn, I am staying out of this one. And you all thought *I* was being out of lline in that last
infamous thread.

But, can't resist. Over five years I have built my cadence speed up - not all at once, but a bit
each year. Personally, I find higher cadences much more productive - I go at a faster average speed
and enjoy the bike more. But, besides that, pedal how you want.

Most of all have fun and enjoy yourself. Truly, I mean that.

http://members.aol.com/foxcondorsrvtns (Colorado rental condo)

http://members.aol.com/dnvrfox (Family Web Page)

Not disagreeing with the overall response, just expounding further on one of the points raised:

>When I'm riding easy, cadence doesn't matter to me one bit.

An exception could be when riding easy as a "recovery ride" (for example if one had ridden a century
the day before and wished to go on an easy spin to loosen the legs up).

In this case a higher (as opposed to a "high") cadence would be preferred by most.

Chris Neary diabloridr@comcast.net

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the
elements I loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

"Chris Neary <diabloridr" <Chris> wrote

>
> An exception could be when riding easy as a "recovery ride" (for example if one had ridden a
> century the day before and wished to go on an easy spin to loosen the legs up).
>

If I've ridden a century the day before, I'm going to be on bed rest and liquids! <grin>

Thanks for all the comments from everyone, and sorry if I bungled into a "religious topic" for some.

Regards,

Hans

--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

"Hans Kohb" <k0hb@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:2a26e61b6704f6bcbe90094e0d2704f...e.mailgate.org...
> "Chris Neary <diabloridr" <Chris> wrote
>
> >
> > An exception could be when riding easy as a "recovery ride" (for example
if
> > one had ridden a century the day before and wished to go on an easy spin
to
> > loosen the legs up).
> >
>
> If I've ridden a century the day before, I'm going to be on bed rest and liquids! <grin>
>
> Thanks for all the comments from everyone, and sorry if I bungled into a "religious topic"
> for some.

Someone just posted this link on Alt Mountain Bike:

http://www.bsn.com/cycling/articles/cadence.html

Bill "started to read it but my eyes glazed over" S.

Joe Potter wrote:
> Are you recommending the OP destroy his knees?

It's not the cadence that hurts knees. It's the load on the knees. High loads are hard on the knees.
While these are generally associated with low cadences they don't have to be. One can pedal at a low
cadence and go slow and not put a high load on the knees and everything should be just fine. The
problems come when you try to go fast at low cadences and so have to press very hard on the pedals.
That's where knee problems associated with low cadences happen.

Also, some people can take take higher loads than others depending upon their conditioning and upon
other factors like arthritis, past knee injuries etc. which tend to reduce the load one can
tollerate.

As for the OP, I'd still recomend a higher cadence than 40. You're likely in too high of a gear. You
don't have to go up to 80 rpm's right away. The more you ride, the smoother your stroke gets and you
will eventually find higher candences *easier*. Just try to keep it on the high end of comfortable
for now and don't worry about always being over 80.

--Bill Davidson
--
Please remove ".nospam" from my address for email replies.

I'm a 17 year veteran of usenet -- you'd think I'd be over it by now

Bill Sorni writes:

>>> An exception could be when riding easy as a "recovery ride" (for example if one had ridden a
>>> century the day before and wished to go on an easy spin to loosen the legs up).

>> If I've ridden a century the day before, I'm going to be on bed rest and liquids!

>> Thanks for all the comments from everyone, and sorry if I bungled into a "religious topic"
>> for some.

> Someone just posted this link on Alt Mountain Bike:

> http://www.bsn.com/cycling/articles/cadence.html

> Bill "started to read it but my eyes glazed over" S.

...as they should. No evidence or proof is given for the prescribed cadence levels in that article.
For a so called scientific journal, Cycling Science is loaded with anecdotal old saws. People with
bad knees have bad knees, something that can be made palpable by bicycling and for the reasons I
mentioned in the earlier response.

As I said, cadence is the new cult that replaced ankling of years past. New rider age is increasing,
as are the number of weak knees.

Jobst Brandt jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org Palo Alto CA

Bill Davidson wrote:

> Joe Potter wrote:
>> Are you recommending the OP destroy his knees?
>
> It's not the cadence that hurts knees. It's the load on the knees. High loads are hard on the
> knees. While these are generally associated with low cadences they don't have to be. One can pedal
> at a low cadence and go slow and not put a high load on the knees and everything should be just
> fine. The problems come when you try to go fast at low cadences and so have to press very hard on
> the pedals. That's where knee problems associated with low cadences happen.
>

We agree on this completely. Just recall that when telling a "newguy" about how to pedal, it is more
than a little likely he is in to low a gear putting way to much pressure on his knees.

The best way to make damn sure you are not in *far* to low a gear is to pedal at 70-80 rpm on a flat
streach for 3-5 minutes. If you find this easy to do, but you are still moving the bike at a good
clip --- you have found the flat ground gear that will be your "normal" gear for now.

It changes as you continue to cycle and the legs get used to it. (but, you knew that, eh?)

>
> Also, some people can take take higher loads than others depending upon their conditioning and
> upon other factors like arthritis, past knee injuries etc. which tend to reduce the load one can
> tollerate.
>
> As for the OP, I'd still recomend a higher cadence than 40. You're likely in too high of a gear.
> You don't have to go up to 80 rpm's right away. The more you ride, the smoother your stroke gets
> and you will eventually find higher candences *easier*. Just try to keep it on the high end of
> comfortable for now and don't worry about always being over 80.
>
> --Bill Davidson

My 80 rpm is perfect. I did not try to settle in at 80 --- I did not have a computer at first. It
was just the right cadence for me at this time here in the flat lands.

I have tried going to a lower gear, but it does not "feel" right. And, I am doing about 17mph most
of the time which is fast enough for an old guy like me with so little peddaling under his belt.

Even now, I pay far more attention to miles on the odo than cadence or speed.

--
Regards, Joe

Eric S. Sande wrote:

>>You are dangerous and ignorant if you recommend one not know the feel of the bike when one is in
>>the correct gear. This gear and feel is found by knowing correct cadence and the bike.
>
> Jobst has a point when he notes that in climbs, the rider is almost always loading the knees
> beyond what normally happens on the flats.
>
> I've noticed that I can reliably get knee pain on my new commute where I did not have it before,
> due to the fact (I think) of more hard accelerations off red lights than formerly.
>

Hills are hard, they say. We folks in Orlando, FLA could not find a real hill if the world
depended on it!

>
> My typical practice on the old commute was to ride in only two gears, fast and less fast... Now I
> find that I've got to do a mort o' shifting to keep my knees happy.
>

I also use two gears almost always. I want a new (or newer) road bike, but the wife wants to know
why. I tell her that I have only 6 gears in the rear; -- she wants to know how many gears I would
use on a new bike.

I need a different track on this issue.

>
> But I'm still basically a spinner, even in traffic it's about smooth and efficient.
>
> I'm perfectly happy at 70 rpm, and I can burst to 120 if I have to, but the stress of being
> outside the power band on the low side just isn't worth it.
>

I have to be a spinner. In the 6 months of cycling (plus diet) I have lost from 275 to 217 and I can
now walk 4-5 miles without pain. I also have been taken off all the meds that my Doc had said I
would take all my life!

I think cycling played a big part in all that. And, I think peddling correctly helped keep
me cycling.

(note: got no science study on this one --- but have called the University)
:-)

--
Regards, Joe

Terry Morse wrote:

> Joe Potter wrote:
>
>> You are dangerous and ignorant if you recommend one not know the feel of the bike when one is in
>> the correct gear. This gear and feel is found by knowing correct cadence and the bike.
>
> What is a "correct cadence", and how does one know it when one sees it? What are the benefits of
> using this cadence?
>
>> Are you recommending the OP destroy his knees?
>
> How does a specific cadence choice destroy one's knees?
> --
> terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/

It does not.

However, if one is going around trying to go fast at 40 rpm then I will tell you he is in a gear
that is to hard for him. If one can keep 60-70 rpm up on a flat streach for many minutes as a
beginner --- then he is probably in a gear that is high enough to be safe.

--
Regards, Joe

Sorni wrote:

>
>> Are you recommending the OP destroy his knees?
>
> Of course! Afterall, I'm not only ignorant, I'm dangerous!
>

Thought so.

--
Regards, Joe

On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 22:32:53 +0000 (UTC), Hans K0HB <k0hb@earthlink.net> wrote:

> In another thread I got some great "hey, new kid!" information. In that thread a couple of folks
> mentioned cadence (of around 80 being a good number), and seemed to attach some importance to that
> notion. I see passing reference to cadence in other posts too.
>
> In a couple of rides since reading that, I have tried to pay attention to cadence, and trying to
> keep a high cadence just simply distracts from my pleasure of riding.
>
> I should point out that I'm not in this to set speed records or qualify for Tour de France (see, I learned an
> insider acronym), but just get a little aerobic excercise and enjoy the birds and flowers.
>
> Am I missing something?
>
> (Please, no lectures about my attitude!)
>
> Regards,
>
> Hans
>
>
>
>

I have a computer that has cadence on it, and I leave it in cadence mode. For me, it's important
that I take hills at over 70 rpm. I have a habit of pedalling too high of a gear up hills, and my
knee (my left knee in particular) doesn't like it. So, I try to watch my cadence when climbing and
switch to an easy gear once I hit 70 rpm or lower.

--
Bob M in CT remove 'x.' to reply

Hans:

Maybe this link will answer your question regarding cadence.

http://www.cyclingfitness.com/ps/Tp12.htm

Kerry

Hans K0HB wrote:
> In another thread I got some great "hey, new kid!" information. In that thread a couple of folks
> mentioned cadence (of around 80 being a good number), and seemed to attach some importance to that
> notion. I see passing reference to cadence in other posts too.
>
> In a couple of rides since reading that, I have tried to pay attention to cadence, and trying to
> keep a high cadence just simply distracts from my pleasure of riding.
>
> I should point out that I'm not in this to set speed records or qualify for Tour de France (see, I learned an
> insider acronym), but just get a little aerobic excercise and enjoy the birds and flowers.
>
> Am I missing something?
>
> (Please, no lectures about my attitude!)
>
> Regards,
>
> Hans
>
>

Attitude? What attitude? I think you've got a great one. You're on a bike and you want to maximize the pleasure aspects of this and are willing to try new things to find out if that's the way to go.

I'm new to adult biking and when I started, I thought that the "best" way for me to bike was to bike in as high a gear as I could manage -- more resistance, the better it would be for me was my thinking.

Then, like you, I started reading about this cadence stuff and was interested because I have really dodgy knees and what the heck, it doesn't hurt a new technique every once in a while.

I don't have a cycle computer so my official cadence is by guess and by golly. I think I was running about 60 rpm (1-1000, 2-1000, 3-1000.... how's that for scientific!).

I can't even remember where I read it, so I can't properly credit the author (sorry!) but someone had said that the way to find a good cadence/gear for you, is to kick it down into as low a gear as you can, spinning as fast as your "high comfortable" and keep gearing down until your feet feel like they're going to slip off the pedals and can't keep up, and then go back up one gear until you loose that "flying feet feeling".

I think the real lesson behind this was to bust me out of the "magic numbers" myth. There's no magic number gear. There's no magic number rpm. I do find that by lowering the resistance and spinning at a higher rpm, it is more comfortable on longer ride. I don't tire as easily and my leg cramps/burning is gone. However, I think what I learned out of this experiment that was most important was to use the bike to facilitate me instead of pushing myself to meet the demands of the bike.

I pedal along at a "high comfortable" cadence, that is I'm spinning as fast as I can and still remain comfortable and so that I'm not thinking about spinning and use the gears to accomodate changes in road conditions, topography, my physical strength and stamina that ride, and the speed at which I feel comfortable (I'm not a fast cyclist and I get nervous if I'm going faster than my comfort level of 20-24 kph).

The whole point is to experiment and find out what works best for you and remember that "what's best" is always changing from ride to ride depending on the strength of the engine, road conditions, weather conditions, topography etc. Make the bike work for you instead of trying to make your square peg fit into some pre-determined round hole.

__________________
Insanity has its price -- Please have exact change.

>As I said, cadence is the new cult that replaced ankling of years past. New rider age is
>increasing, as are the number of weak knees.

Cult it may be, but it isn't anything new.

The old racer's drill was to ride fixed gear in the winter to improve their spin for the
racing season.

Chris Neary diabloridr@comcast.net

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the
elements I loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh