Group Riding Dynamics

As my riding and bike-handling skills have improved, I've been doing some centuries and metric
centuries with small groups of between 3 and 6 riders from one of the bike clubs to which I belong,
not always the same people. We are not skillful enough to ride in a paceline but we do try to work
together, although usually only partially successfully.

The dynamics of riding in a group intrigues me and I've asked some previous questions arising from
my experiences. The question that occurred to me during this weekend's charity ride is this: how do
you handle hills when the riders in the group have different abilities to maintain some speed and
momentum while climbing? That is, I take my turn pulling then pull off to rest--but then comes a
hill and the line breaks down. I'm a bit stronger up hills than most of the people with whom I ride
so I typically have to pull out to the left and pass just to get up the hill without killing myself
at the slower pace. Then I usually soft-pedal until we regroup when I either stay out front or let
the leaders take over again.

We often have a similar situation on descents where some folks ride their brakes and others are more
comfortable getting up some speed. I of course like the speed going down hill because it helps me
get my bulk up the next hill.

So how does a group stay or work together better when the members cannot climb at roughly the same
speed? Thanks for contributing to my cycling education. --Roy Zipris

lrzipris@yahoo.com (Roy Zipris) wrote in news:9d828b4.0309230914.67b2f243 @posting.google.com:
> So how does a group stay or work together better when the members cannot climb at roughly the same
> speed? Thanks for contributing to my cycling education.

Encourage the slower climbers to burst ahead of the group before the hill. The stronger climbers can
then catch up near the top. After the climb, the more tired people can rest in the draft for a while
before taking their pulls again.

Decending isn't as big a problem, since even on a long hill a slower decender shouldn't be more than
a few minutes behind. On a multi-mile climb, the slower climbers can be many minutes (10 or 20 or 30
minutes) slower.

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:14:13 +0000, Roy Zipris wrote:

> pull off to rest--but then comes a hill and the line breaks down. I'm a bit stronger up hills than
> most of the people with whom I ride so I typically have to pull out to the left and pass just to
> get up the hill without killing myself at the slower pace. Then I usually soft-pedal until we
> regroup when I either stay out front or let the leaders take over again.

Unless the groups is very fast climbing, a pace line on a hill is not of much help, anyway. The
groups I ride with usually break apart on hills as well, and those who get up first wait for those
who are slower. If your abilities aren't too far apart it should not be a problem. I prefer for
everyone to climb at their own best pace. It gives the stronger riders a challenge they may not feel
on the flats in a moderate paceline, and some bragging rights, but no one should feel pressured to
climb beyond their abilities or give up the ride. Usually, no one complains about a re-grouping stop
at the top of the hill.

> We often have a similar situation on descents where some folks ride their brakes and others are
> more comfortable getting up some speed. I of course like the speed going down hill because it
> helps me get my bulk up the next hill.

I'm with you there. One woman I ride with is unusually slow at downhills, and can really drop
back behind the rest of us. We don't have trouble with a re-grouping stop at the bottom when
she's with us.

It depends on how competitive your group is.
>
> So how does a group stay or work together better when the members cannot climb at roughly the
> same speed?

It's rare for a non-racing group to be able to work together climbing. For me, hills are always an
individual challenge.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | It is a scientifically proven fact that a mid life crisis can _`\(,_ | only be cured by
something racy and Italian. Bianchis and (_)/ (_) | Colnagos are a lot cheaper than Maserattis
and Ferraris. -- Glenn Davies

"Roy Zipris" <lrzipris@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9d828b4.0309230914.67b2f243@posting.google.com...

> The dynamics of riding in a group intrigues me and I've asked some previous questions arising from
> my experiences. The question that occurred to me during this weekend's charity ride is this: how
> do you handle hills when the riders in the group have different abilities to maintain some speed
> and momentum while climbing?

I think the system that works best is for riders to pull out of the line when a gap opens in front,
and let the line pull through. This doesn't work when a slower rider is pulling, if you're the lead
rider and you know you're not as strong a climber, just pull out & let the group through. When
strong riders start pulling out to pass on the left, you wind up with a disorganized pack several
abreast, filling the road. After you've climbed a few hills in a group, you know who the strong
climbers are, just pull out so they can pass, maintain your pace, and go back in line when a
suitable gap shows up. The bigger the group, the harder it is to manage all this smoothly. Unless
riders are really well matched, a group larger than 5 or 6 becomes pretty ragged. I'd rather ride
alone than in a ragged paceline, especially for several hours.

When you're riding a long distance, it may makes more sense just to climb in a line at the speed of
the slowest, there's no point in going ahead if you're just going to regroup. Often, the slower
climbers are fast on the flats, so it all works out.

The bottom line is that once the abilities of the group become too disparate (either climbing or
descending) the group *will* disintegrate.

The long term solution is to keep riding together while each member consciously works to improve
his/her individual weak point(s).

Chris Neary diabloridr@comcast.net

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the
elements I loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

In article <Xns93FF6A9FEBC23fubar123@66.134.198.18>, Ken <nospam@no.no> writes:

>Encourage the slower climbers to burst ahead of the group before the hill. The stronger climbers
>can then catch up near the top.

Wow…this is the worst advice I've ever read about riders of various abilities and hill
climbing/descending (while not under racing conditions). A good hill climber knows that exerting a
lot of energy before a climb is a waste of effort.

Slower riders should conserve as much energy as possible by sitting behind stronger riders, letting
them break the wind. Stronger riders should allow them to "sit in". At the bottom of a climb, the
slower riders should be allowed to move up to the front of the group USING AS LITTLE ENERGY AS
POSSIBLE. On the climb, the slower rider should maintain his/her own pace and filter back through
the group.

Do you ever see Lance Armstrong attacking just before a big climb? His team gets him to the bottom
of the climb in such a way that he uses as little effort as possible. He stays fresh so he can climb
at his best. Why should a weaker rider, surrounded by stronger hill climbers use a different
technique by "bursting ahead of the group"?

At the top of a climb, strong riders who soft-pedal are probably extending the best courtesy
possible. U-turning and riding in circles is a sign of impatience and can discourage the
slower riders.

On the descents, it is safer to spread out and regroup at the bottom. You express that you and your
riding partners are still learning the skills of cycling. Drafting while on a descent with riders of
limited skills is an accident waiting to happen.

With a wide variety of abilities, strong riders should realize that doing the "bulk of the work" is
good group dynamics and helps the slower riders to grow in ability. Your inquires, types of
questions, and examples show that you and your group are well on the way of learning the group
dynamics skills of club rides.

Ken wrote:

> Encourage the slower climbers to burst ahead of the group before the hill. The stronger climbers
> can then catch up near the top. After the climb, the more tired people can rest in the draft for a
> while before taking their pulls again.

I hear this advice all the time. It may make some sense for racers who don't want to get dropped on
the hills. But for recreational rides it creates problems.

It's a real PITA when slower riders sprint to the front just before a climb, only to slow down a
short distance up the hill. This requires faster riders to pass them, often on narrow, twisty roads
with traffic.

It's works out much better if the slower climbers stay at the back, and the faster climbers wait up
at the top.

Art Harris

>Unless the groups is very fast climbing, a pace line on a hill is not of much help, anyway. The
>groups I ride with usually break apart on hills as well, and those who get up first wait for those
>who are slower. If your abilities aren't too far apart it should not be a problem. I prefer for
>everyone to climb at their own best pace. It gives the stronger riders a challenge they may not
>feel on the flats in a moderate paceline, and some bragging rights, but no one should feel
>pressured to climb beyond their abilities or give up the ride. Usually, no one complains about a
>re-grouping stop at the top of the hill.

Strong climbers can always push weaker riders up the hill.

Chris Neary diabloridr@comcast.net

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the
elements I loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh