left turn law. What morons made this law? - Page 2

In article <1ar9rvk59sgq1pmq8t53cf639bv7q9ia6j@4ax.com>, mark@habcycles.com says...
> "Eric Vey" <junk@ericvey.com> wrote:
>
> >I do this sometimes even though it is not the law in my state.
> >
> >My state says I am supposed to ease on over into the lanes where folks are driving 50-60 mph to
> >make my left turn. I find that a bit intimidating sometimes when I look over my shoulder.
> >
> >So I bail to the right shoulder, then turn around to hit the intersection at a 90, like a
> >pedestrian would. It is stupid, but it works for me.
>
> It's only stupid if it puts you in greater risk, and I doubt that's the case.
>
> Just this morning, I made a turn the same way. I often ride with my wife to work, and on one route
> we end up having to make a left at a major intersection - three straight lanes each way, plus two
> left turn lanes each way... that's a lot of asphalt to cross.
>
> Plus, we're doing it in the early morning (dark) with a lot of sleepy commuters on the road, plus
> a LOT of lighting "clutter" that would tend to mask our normally adequate lighting.
>
> We COULD force our way into the left lane (especially if the traffic light going our way was red
> and the straight traffic was slowing), but even if we stayed to the right left turn lane (sounds
> oxymoronic, eh?) there would be a danger that one of the long string of cars that would be
> turning behind us would be watching something else and try to occupy the same space/time
> continuum we were.
>
> I should mention that we also find it more reasonable to take the (very wide) sidewalk for the 1/4
> mile or so until we turn off that six-lane shoulderless road. That's not to say the sidewalk is
> without danger, but there are almost no side streets in that stretch (it goes under an interstate
> highway), but the odds are better, IMHO.

None of the general rules *always* apply; the rider always has to use their judgement in each
situation, and an experienced rider can usually make a correct one.

--
Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

On 14 Nov 2003 06:36:33 -0800, brian_huntley@hotmail.com (Brian Huntley) wrote:

>Allister.McLaren@Alcan.com (Allister McLaren) wrote in message
>news:<fb0e850.0311140208.6ac773fb@posting.google.com>...
>>
>> It's called a hook turn here in Australia. It's perfectly acceptable, and in very heavy traffic
>> can be safer than trying to merge across mutiple lanes.

It doesn't even have to be that heavy, just where the cars are spaced closely enough for it to be a
pain to get across. If I'm going to have to come to a stop anyway...

>> In Melbourne where they still run trams, cars are required to make hook turns at certain
>> intersections. It's really no big deal.

For anyone who wants to see a Flash animation of this, see the link below:

<http://www.path.unimelb.edu.au/~bernardk/victoria/melb/hook_turn.html#animation>

If they did that here there would usually be some nimrod intending to go straight through pulling
into the intersection behind the hook turner and when the light changed, they would try and go
around them just as the hook turner is ready to proceed.

Where the streetcar (tram) rails are sepearate from regular traffic in Toronto, either left turns
from the street with the streetcars are disallowed or there are left turn lanes with a third stage
to the traffic signals, one where everyone is stopped but the left turners on the street with
streetcars (who face green arrows).

There is a plan to do the same thing with St. Clair St. as was done with Spadina Avenue.

>I hear it called a 'square turn' here in Canada. In at least one intersection in Toronto [1], there
>are signs mandating it. I typically do one voluntarily every day. [2]
>
> - Brian
>
>[1] Westbound on Bloor at Jarvis or perhaps at Church. I've never had to make that turn.

Brian, I think you're referring to Bloor at Sherbourne St.

>[2] Southbound University (6-8 lanes, divided) at King (4 lanes & streetcars) in the morning rush.

Here's my question which hopefully will rile things up: When there are already other cyclists from
the cross street waiting there is it considered rude or presumptuous to pull in front of them at an
angle possibly blocking pedestrian traffic until the light changes? If I don't push my bike along
the sidewalk and get back on it and the road at the end of the queue isn't that going to give all
cyclists a bad name and upset the hand-wringers?

begin On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 07:56:28 -0700, Mark Hickey <mark@habcycles.com> wrote:

>Allister.McLaren@Alcan.com (Allister McLaren) wrote:
>
>>brinkmatthew@hotmail.com (Brink) wrote in message
>>news:<b9d3c907.0311131714.5f5fcf2e@posting.google.com>...
>>> this is the left turn law for illinois. Has anyone in the world ever turned left like this?
>>
>>It's called a hook turn here in Australia. It's perfectly acceptable, and in very heavy traffic
>>can be safer than trying to merge across mutiple lanes.
>>
>>In Melbourne where they still run trams, cars are required to make hook turns at certain
>>intersections. It's really no big deal.
>
>Mate, maybe it's no big deal if you learned to drive in Melbourne, but for the rest of the world,
>it's a very, VERY odd way to make a turn - pull into the furthest lane, stop, wait for the light to
>turn RED, THEN turn across traffic... I didn't see any other cities in Oz where they did it that
>way (thankfully).
>
>Bad enough y'all drive on the wrong side of the road... ;-)

I like the intersections where pedestrians cross corner to corner. I remember these in a few places
in Queensland; I wonder how widespread are they? Anyway, we liked to take advantage of them
wherever possible!

In article <7ifarv4re6ie78k04q68uqg8ali32oco5u@4ax.com>, bikerider@-
NOSPAM_THANKS-rogers.com says...
> begin On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 07:56:28 -0700, Mark Hickey <mark@habcycles.com> wrote:
>
> >Allister.McLaren@Alcan.com (Allister McLaren) wrote:
> >
> >>brinkmatthew@hotmail.com (Brink) wrote in message
> >>news:<b9d3c907.0311131714.5f5fcf2e@posting.google.com>...
> >>> this is the left turn law for illinois. Has anyone in the world ever turned left like this?
> >>
> >>It's called a hook turn here in Australia. It's perfectly acceptable, and in very heavy traffic
> >>can be safer than trying to merge across mutiple lanes.
> >>
> >>In Melbourne where they still run trams, cars are required to make hook turns at certain
> >>intersections. It's really no big deal.
> >
> >Mate, maybe it's no big deal if you learned to drive in Melbourne, but for the rest of the world,
> >it's a very, VERY odd way to make a turn - pull into the furthest lane, stop, wait for the light
> >to turn RED, THEN turn across traffic... I didn't see any other cities in Oz where they did it
> >that way (thankfully).
> >
> >Bad enough y'all drive on the wrong side of the road... ;-)
>
> I like the intersections where pedestrians cross corner to corner. I remember these in a few
> places in Queensland; I wonder how widespread are they? Anyway, we liked to take advantage of them
> wherever possible!

Not real common in the U.S., but they do exist. All the traffic is stopped, and the peds can go
anywhere across the intersection, even diagonally. I've heard them called "scramble" lights.

--
Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

David Kerber wrote:

>In article <7ifarv4re6ie78k04q68uqg8ali32oco5u@4ax.com>, bikerider@-
>NOSPAM_THANKS-rogers.com says...
>
>>begin On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 07:56:28 -0700, Mark Hickey <mark@habcycles.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Allister.McLaren@Alcan.com (Allister McLaren) wrote:
>>>
>>>>brinkmatthew@hotmail.com (Brink) wrote in message
>>>>news:<b9d3c907.0311131714.5f5fcf2e@posting.google.com>...
>>>>
>>>>>this is the left turn law for illinois. Has anyone in the world ever turned left like this?
>>>>>
>>>>It's called a hook turn here in Australia. It's perfectly acceptable, and in very heavy traffic
>>>>can be safer than trying to merge across mutiple lanes.
>>>>
>>>>In Melbourne where they still run trams, cars are required to make hook turns at certain
>>>>intersections. It's really no big deal.
>>>>
>>>Mate, maybe it's no big deal if you learned to drive in Melbourne, but for the rest of the world,
>>>it's a very, VERY odd way to make a turn - pull into the furthest lane, stop, wait for the light
>>>to turn RED, THEN turn across traffic... I didn't see any other cities in Oz where they did it
>>>that way (thankfully).
>>>
>>>Bad enough y'all drive on the wrong side of the road... ;-)
>>>
>>I like the intersections where pedestrians cross corner to corner. I remember these in a few
>>places in Queensland; I wonder how widespread are they? Anyway, we liked to take advantage of them
>>wherever possible!
>>
>
>Not real common in the U.S., but they do exist. All the traffic is stopped, and the peds can go
>anywhere across the intersection, even diagonally. I've heard them called "scramble" lights.
>
We had them at a few intersections in Vancouver BC when I was a kid a zillion years ago. Peds criss
crossed on the walk light. I think Hastings and Burrard or Pender & Burrard had it for one. This
would be in the late 50's. It was a novelty and fun to crosswalk that way. Bernie

"Pete" <ptr@usaf.com> wrote in message news:1gXsb.4890$kL2.1760@fe3.columbus.rr.com...
>
> "Brink" <brinkmatthew@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:b9d3c907.0311131714.5f5fcf2e@posting.google.com...
> > this is the left turn law for illinois. Has anyone in the world ever turned left like this?
... snip...

On occassion, I have made turns in that manner. NOT due to legal compulsion, simply due to an
inability to get safely across several lanes of traffic to the left turn lane. IOW, in certain
specific instances, it was safer and simpler for me to do so.

I have a brain (that I I use on rare occassions). I have eyes. I have an inate desire to avoid
becoming a hood ornament. I do what I consider best for ME within the confines of the law.

Jeff

In article <5ce3eb7296177d9a7ea1db8ab32131dc@news.teranews.com>,
"Mike Kruger" <MikeKr@mouse-potato.com> writes:

>> Has anyone in the world ever turned left like this?
>
> I have. If traffic is very heavy and I do not feel -- in my personal judgment -- that I want to
> cross over to the left lane, I will make the turn this way.
>
> A similar method of making a left turn is also mentioned in Forester, as an alternative. (6th
> edition, page 320). If it's vehicular enough for John Forester, it's vehicular enough for me

Today I was reminded of how rain capes preclude hand signals.

cheers, Tom

--
-- Powered by FreeBSD Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn
[point] bc [point] ca

"Jeff" <frostback1963@yahooSANSSPAM.com> wrote:

>"Pete" <ptr@usaf.com> wrote in message news:1gXsb.4890$kL2.1760@fe3.columbus.rr.com...
>>
>> "Brink" <brinkmatthew@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:b9d3c907.0311131714.5f5fcf2e@posting.google.com...
>> > this is the left turn law for illinois. Has anyone in the world ever turned left like this?
>... snip...
>
>On occassion, I have made turns in that manner. NOT due to legal compulsion, simply due to an
>inability to get safely across several lanes of traffic to the left turn lane. IOW, in certain
>specific instances, it was safer and simpler for me to do so.
>
>I have a brain (that I I use on rare occassions). I have eyes. I have an inate desire to avoid
>becoming a hood ornament. I do what I consider best for ME within the confines of the law.

Different situations call for different techniques. While I'm a "very vehicular rider", there are
times I will negotiate a left turn like this as well (not many, but it does happen). It's all just a
matter of perspective - in a small town or dense urban environment it may make less sense, but for a
"low density city" (like Phoenix), the width of the road, amount and speed of traffic can make the
"proper left turn" a very risky proposition.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

In article <9srhrvgh240ig9j46mihi4543ia9qcvpoe@4ax.com>, Mark Hickey <mark@habcycles.com> wrote:

snip
>
> Different situations call for different techniques. While I'm a "very vehicular rider", there are
> times I will negotiate a left turn like this as well (not many, but it does happen). It's all just
> a matter of perspective - in a small town or dense urban environment it may make less sense, but
> for a "low density city" (like Phoenix), the width of the road, amount and speed of traffic can
> make the "proper left turn" a very risky proposition.
>
> Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

A low density city???

What happens when all the "snowbirds" arrive ??? ( Used to live in Scottsdale and work/ ride to
Camellback )

--
"Freedom Is a Light for Which Many Have Died in Darkness"

- Tomb of the unknown - American Revolution

Chris B. <bikerider@-NOSPAM_THANKS-rogers.com> wrote in message
news:<kgdarv0jnu451u4r3298od6f0r1sri445c@4ax.com>...
>
> Here's my question which hopefully will rile things up: When there are already other cyclists from
> the cross street waiting there is it considered rude or presumptuous to pull in front of them at
> an angle possibly blocking pedestrian traffic until the light changes? If I don't push my bike
> along the sidewalk and get back on it and the road at the end of the queue isn't that going to
> give all cyclists a bad name and upset the hand-wringers?

I don't consider it rude or presumptuous when someone goes ahead of me in those circumstances, so I
hope the people I have to go ahead of when I do it don't think me rude either. Walking back along
the sidewalk seems a bit silly, and might not allow for easy re-integration with traffic (worst case
- the light changes while you're doing it.)

However, I try very hard not to block pedestrian traffic in that circumstance.

As to upsetting hand-wringers, isn't that what they live for?

Mark Hickey <mark@habcycles.com> wrote in message
news:<55r9rv435k7mjekrnk8n2oun4v719phrcd@4ax.com>...

> Mate, maybe it's no big deal if you learned to drive in Melbourne, but for the rest of the world,
> it's a very, VERY odd way to make a turn - pull into the furthest lane, stop, wait for the light
> to turn RED, THEN turn across traffic... I didn't see any other cities in Oz where they did it
> that way (thankfully).

It's not really that odd. Think of it as merging into the cross traffic. All you're doing in
practice is pulling up to the red light on the cross street and proceeding with the rest of the
traffic when the light turns green.

It's actually written into the rules an option for cyclists in evey state to make a turn this way,
and I do do it occasionally at one particular intersection, but normally I have no trouble
negotiating a merge accross even the busiest traffic. However, some cyclists may find this
daunting, and a hook turn is a less threatening technique as it doesn't involve changing lanes
across moving traffic.

Either way, I wouldn't describe it as a 'moronic' law by any stretch of the imagination.

Allister

"H. M. Leary" <mikie357@forgedabit.net> wrote:

>In article <9srhrvgh240ig9j46mihi4543ia9qcvpoe@4ax.com>, Mark Hickey <mark@habcycles.com> wrote:
>
>snip
>>
>> Different situations call for different techniques. While I'm a "very vehicular rider", there are
>> times I will negotiate a left turn like this as well (not many, but it does happen). It's all
>> just a matter of perspective - in a small town or dense urban environment it may make less sense,
>> but for a "low density city" (like Phoenix), the width of the road, amount and speed of traffic
>> can make the "proper left turn" a very risky proposition.
>>
>> Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
>
>A low density city???
>
>What happens when all the "snowbirds" arrive ??? ( Used to live in Scottsdale and work/ ride to
>Camellback )

You need to spend some time in NYC or better yet, Beijing to have something to compare against.
Phoenix is VERY low density (Scottsdale even more) by any reasonable comparison to the "high density
cities" like NYC. I suspect you could get the population of the US into the Phoenix metropolitan
area if the density was the same as Manhattan...

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame