left turn law. What morons made this law?

this is the left turn law for illinois. Has anyone in the world ever turned left like this?

(b) A person riding a bicycle or motorized pedalcycle intending to turn left shall approach the
turn as close as practicable to the right curb or edge of the roadway. After proceeding across
the intersecting roadway to the far corner of the curb or intersection of the roadway edges,
the bicyclist or motorized pedalcycle driver shall stop, as much as practicable out of the way
of traffic. After stopping the person shall yield to any traffic proceeding in either direction
along the roadway such person had been using. After yielding, the bicycle or motorized
pedalcycle driver shall comply with any official traffic control device or police officer
regulating traffic on the highway along which he intends to proceed, and the bicyclist or
motorized pedalcycle driver may proceed in the new direction.

brink

13 Nov 2003 17:14:33 -0800,
<b9d3c907.0311131714.5f5fcf2e@posting.google.com>, brinkmatthew@hotmail.com (Brink) wrote:

>What morons made this law?

Your duly elected officials. You know, the guys you paid off to look after your interests.

>Has anyone in the world ever turned left like this?

It's a variation on a theme that's often proposed as an alternative method. I've made left turns
like this when it's going to beat waiting for the next green arrow cycle. I'm not obliged to. But
some times and places, it works quite well. People new to cycling IN traffic find it more comforting
than turning from where we're expected, AS traffic.

IIRC, Illinois has some sorta escape clause in saying that bicycles are not intended as the primary
users of roads so they'd best learn to drive or eat dirt.
--
zk

"Brink" <brinkmatthew@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b9d3c907.0311131714.5f5fcf2e@posting.google.com...
> this is the left turn law for illinois. Has anyone in the world ever turned left like this?
>

Virginia has the same thing, but *only* if you elect not to make a normal left turn.

It appears to be the same deal in IL. Sec. 11-1510. Left Turns (a) A person riding a bicycle or
motorized pedalcycle intending to turn left shall follow a course described in Section 11-801 or in
paragraph (b) of this Section.

11-801 outlines a normal left turn.

IOW, it's your choice.

Pete

I do this sometimes even though it is not the law in my state.

My state says I am supposed to ease on over into the lanes where folks are driving 50-60 mph to make
my left turn. I find that a bit intimidating sometimes when I look over my shoulder.

So I bail to the right shoulder, then turn around to hit the intersection at a 90, like a pedestrian
would. It is stupid, but it works for me.

"Brink" <brinkmatthew@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b9d3c907.0311131714.5f5fcf2e@posting.google.com...
> this is the left turn law for illinois. Has anyone in the world ever turned left like this?
>
> (b) A person riding a bicycle or motorized pedalcycle intending to turn left shall approach the
> turn as close as practicable to the right curb or edge of the roadway. After proceeding
> across the intersecting roadway to the far corner of the curb or intersection of the roadway
> edges, the bicyclist or motorized pedalcycle driver shall stop, as much as practicable out of
> the way of traffic. After stopping the person shall yield to any traffic proceeding in either
> direction along the roadway such person had been using. After yielding, the bicycle or
> motorized pedalcycle driver shall comply with any official traffic control device or police
> officer regulating traffic on the highway along which he intends to proceed, and the
> bicyclist or motorized pedalcycle driver may proceed in the new direction.
>
> brink

It is idiotic. It is also unsurprising. I'm more shocked when I see laws that make sense.

"Brink" <brinkmatthew@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b9d3c907.0311131714.5f5fcf2e@posting.google.com...
> this is the left turn law for illinois. Has anyone in the world ever turned left like this?
>
> (b) A person riding a bicycle or motorized pedalcycle intending to turn left shall approach the
> turn as close as practicable to the right curb or edge of the roadway. After proceeding
> across the intersecting roadway to the far corner of the curb or intersection of the roadway
> edges, the bicyclist or motorized pedalcycle driver shall stop, as much as practicable out of
> the way of traffic. After stopping the person shall yield to any traffic proceeding in either
> direction along the roadway such person had been using. After yielding, the bicycle or
> motorized pedalcycle driver shall comply with any official traffic control device or police
> officer regulating traffic on the highway along which he intends to proceed, and the
> bicyclist or motorized pedalcycle driver may proceed in the new direction.
>
> brink

"Brink" <brinkmatthew@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b9d3c907.0311131714.5f5fcf2e@posting.google.com...
> this is the left turn law for illinois.

No, it isn't. This is PART of the law. You are only giving part (b).

The section you omitted goes like this:

"Sec. 11-1510. Left Turns.

(a) A person riding a bicycle or motorized pedalcycle intending to turn left shall follow a course
described in Section 11-801 or in paragraph (b) of this Section. (b) ... "(etc. as you cite)

So, what's in section 11-801? That turns (no pun intended) out to be the normal, vehicular
left turn:

"The driver of a vehicle intending to turn left at any intersection shall approach the intersection
in the extreme left-hand lane lawfully available to traffic moving in the direction of travel of
such vehicle, and after entering the intersection, the left turn shall be made so as to leave the
intersection in a lane lawfully available to traffic moving in such direction upon the roadway being
entered. Whenever practicable the left turn shall be made in that portion of the intersection to the
left of the center of the intersection."

Note that section 11-1510 specifically allows bicyclists to turn this way. However, it ALSO allows
them to turn by going through the intersection (as described in section b). So, cyclists are getting
an added benefit, not forced to do something odd.

A similar method of making a left turn is also mentioned in Forester, as an alternative. (6th
edition, page 320).

> Has anyone in the world ever turned left like this?

I have. If traffic is very heavy and I do not feel -- in my personal judgment -- that I want to
cross over to the left lane, I will make the turn this way.

A similar method of making a left turn is also mentioned in Forester, as an alternative. (6th
edition, page 320). If it's vehicular enough for John Forester, it's vehicular enough for me

>
> (b) A person riding a bicycle or motorized pedalcycle intending to turn left shall approach the
> turn as close as practicable to the right curb or edge of the roadway. After proceeding
> across the intersecting roadway to the far corner of the curb or intersection of the roadway
> edges, the bicyclist or motorized pedalcycle driver shall stop, as much as practicable out of
> the way of traffic. After stopping the person shall yield to any traffic proceeding in either
> direction along the roadway such person had been using. After yielding, the bicycle or
> motorized pedalcycle driver shall comply with any official traffic control device or police
> officer regulating traffic on the highway along which he intends to proceed, and the
> bicyclist or motorized pedalcycle driver may proceed in the new direction.
>
> brink

My reference for all the citations above is:
http://www.legis.state.il.us/legisla...ct5artstoc.htm This link
can be found on a general source for bike laws frequently given here: http://massbike.org/bikelaw/

On 13 Nov 2003 17:14:33 -0800, brinkmatthew@hotmail.com (Brink) wrote:
>this is the left turn law for illinois. Has anyone in the world ever turned left like this?

Reminds me of the law in Rhode Island. Search groups.google.com for the "Icky RI laws" thread I
started. Somebody pointed out that elsewhere, in another section, it said that that terrible left
turn law was _optional_, and you could indeed make a sensible left turn. You may have the same
situation.

>brink
--
Rick Onanian

There are a few intersections that I turn left at this way.. Because they don't have a dedicated
left turn lane, and they're fairly high speed roads. I feel as though if I go into the left-most
lane to turn, and wait there for an opportunity, someone going straight in the same lane is gonna
plow right into me from behind..

If the go to the corner, stop, turn 90 degrees then continue thing is stupid, is there some easier
way of negotiating left turns without turn-lanes I should know about?

Mike http://mikebeauchamp.com

"Brink" <brinkmatthew@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b9d3c907.0311131714.5f5fcf2e@posting.google.com...
> this is the left turn law for illinois. Has anyone in the world ever turned left like this?
>
> (b) A person riding a bicycle or motorized pedalcycle intending to turn left shall approach the
> turn as close as practicable to the right curb or edge of the roadway. After proceeding
> across the intersecting roadway to the far corner of the curb or intersection of the roadway
> edges, the bicyclist or motorized pedalcycle driver shall stop, as much as practicable out of
> the way of traffic. After stopping the person shall yield to any traffic proceeding in either
> direction along the roadway such person had been using. After yielding, the bicycle or
> motorized pedalcycle driver shall comply with any official traffic control device or police
> officer regulating traffic on the highway along which he intends to proceed, and the
> bicyclist or motorized pedalcycle driver may proceed in the new direction.
>
> brink

brinkmatthew@hotmail.com (Brink) wrote in message
news:<b9d3c907.0311131714.5f5fcf2e@posting.google.com>...
> this is the left turn law for illinois. Has anyone in the world ever turned left like this?
>

It's called a hook turn here in Australia. It's perfectly acceptable, and in very heavy traffic can
be safer than trying to merge across mutiple lanes.

In Melbourne where they still run trams, cars are required to make hook turns at certain
intersections. It's really no big deal.

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:38:09 -0800, Zoot Katz <zootkatz@operamail.com> wrote:

>13 Nov 2003 17:14:33 -0800,
><b9d3c907.0311131714.5f5fcf2e@posting.google.com>, brinkmatthew@hotmail.com (Brink) wrote:
>
>>Has anyone in the world ever turned left like this?
>
>It's a variation on a theme that's often proposed as an alternative method.

Here in CT, the law allows the standard "take the lane" style of left turn, as well as the moronic
"I'm afraid of cars" method. Unfortunately, the two methods are nowhere near each other in the MV
code, so many see only one or the other.

My wife is a school teacher, and the "safety" publications distributed to schools often describe the
correct way to turn left as riding onto the sidewalk and waiting for a walk signal. Bicycling on the
sidewalk is illegal in my home town. <G>

Barry

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 22:11:45 -0500, "Eric Vey" <junk@ericvey.com> wrote:

>I do this sometimes even though it is not the law in my state.
>
>My state says I am supposed to ease on over into the lanes where folks are driving 50-60 mph to
>make my left turn. I find that a bit intimidating sometimes when I look over my shoulder.
>
>So I bail to the right shoulder, then turn around to hit the intersection at a 90, like a
>pedestrian would. It is stupid, but it works for me.

60 MPH traffic might have me doing the same, depending on the intersection. More often than not, I'd
try to find an alternate route around that intersection.

Barry

Allister.McLaren@Alcan.com (Allister McLaren) wrote in message
news:<fb0e850.0311140208.6ac773fb@posting.google.com>...
>
> It's called a hook turn here in Australia. It's perfectly acceptable, and in very heavy traffic
> can be safer than trying to merge across mutiple lanes.
>
> In Melbourne where they still run trams, cars are required to make hook turns at certain
> intersections. It's really no big deal.

I hear it called a 'square turn' here in Canada. In at least one intersection in Toronto [1], there
are signs mandating it. I typically do one voluntarily every day. [2]

- Brian

[1] Westbound on Bloor at Jarvis or perhaps at Church. I've never had to make that turn.
[2] Southbound University (6-8 lanes, divided) at King (4 lanes & streetcars) in the morning rush.

Allister.McLaren@Alcan.com (Allister McLaren) wrote:

>brinkmatthew@hotmail.com (Brink) wrote in message
>news:<b9d3c907.0311131714.5f5fcf2e@posting.google.com>...
>> this is the left turn law for illinois. Has anyone in the world ever turned left like this?
>
>It's called a hook turn here in Australia. It's perfectly acceptable, and in very heavy traffic can
>be safer than trying to merge across mutiple lanes.
>
>In Melbourne where they still run trams, cars are required to make hook turns at certain
>intersections. It's really no big deal.

Mate, maybe it's no big deal if you learned to drive in Melbourne, but for the rest of the world,
it's a very, VERY odd way to make a turn - pull into the furthest lane, stop, wait for the light to
turn RED, THEN turn across traffic... I didn't see any other cities in Oz where they did it that way
(thankfully).

Bad enough y'all drive on the wrong side of the road... ;-)

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

"Eric Vey" <junk@ericvey.com> wrote:

>I do this sometimes even though it is not the law in my state.
>
>My state says I am supposed to ease on over into the lanes where folks are driving 50-60 mph to
>make my left turn. I find that a bit intimidating sometimes when I look over my shoulder.
>
>So I bail to the right shoulder, then turn around to hit the intersection at a 90, like a
>pedestrian would. It is stupid, but it works for me.

It's only stupid if it puts you in greater risk, and I doubt that's the case.

Just this morning, I made a turn the same way. I often ride with my wife to work, and on one route
we end up having to make a left at a major intersection - three straight lanes each way, plus two
left turn lanes each way... that's a lot of asphalt to cross.

Plus, we're doing it in the early morning (dark) with a lot of sleepy commuters on the road, plus a
LOT of lighting "clutter" that would tend to mask our normally adequate lighting.

We COULD force our way into the left lane (especially if the traffic light going our way was red and
the straight traffic was slowing), but even if we stayed to the right left turn lane (sounds
oxymoronic, eh?) there would be a danger that one of the long string of cars that would be turning
behind us would be watching something else and try to occupy the same space/time continuum we were.

I should mention that we also find it more reasonable to take the (very wide) sidewalk for the 1/4
mile or so until we turn off that six-lane shoulderless road. That's not to say the sidewalk is
without danger, but there are almost no side streets in that stretch (it goes under an interstate
highway), but the odds are better, IMHO.

For any of you in the Phoenix area, I'm talking about turning west on Southern off Priest... not a
very bike friendly part of town.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

"Mike Beauchamp" <newsgroups@mikebeauchamp.com> wrote in message
news:<bp26ms02gth@enews2.newsguy.com>...
> There are a few intersections that I turn left at this way.. Because they don't have a dedicated
> left turn lane, and they're fairly high speed roads. I feel as though if I go into the left-most
> lane to turn, and wait there for an opportunity, someone going straight in the same lane is gonna
> plow right into me from behind..
>
> If the go to the corner, stop, turn 90 degrees then continue thing is stupid, is there some easier
> way of negotiating left turns without turn-lanes I should know about?

Two choices for making a vehicular style left turn when there is no turn lane. Wait to turn in the
middle of the left-most lane. If you are visible (ie you aren't doing this at night with no lights)
there should be no more likelihood of someone plowing into you from behind than if you were a car
doing the same thing. The other choice is to wait to turn at the left most side of the left most
lane. Don't do this if the person beside you is signalling left, then there will be conflict. This
way you should theoretically be out of the way of cars going straight on either side of the road
while you wait for the opportunity to turn. However depending on the width of the road and the speed
of the vehicles this can feel like you are really getting sandwiched. And if you have a foot down
you don't want that foot to get run over So the middle of the lane generally works best.

In cases where I don't feel comfortable doing this (missed opportunity to merge or a tangle of
streetcar tracks to cross) and prefer to cross then cross I find it rather awkward, and potentially
makes bikes look like rolling pedestrians rather than vehicles. So to avoid confusion, I just stop
my bike at the intersection, get off, stand on the sidewalk and then walk the bike across like a
pedestrian. Easier to make it clear who I'm behaving like.