knee problem- links? - Page 2

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 16:53:05 GMT, "Peter Cole"
<peter_cole_no_spam_at_all@comcast.net> wrote:

>"Dan Daniel" <ddandan.remove@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>news:0jki30tkkkim7ucmuseputnobrselglu76@4ax.com...
>> I am looking for web sites that discuss knee problems for bicyclists and some of the adjustments
>> that can be made in seat position and height. Anything on the general physiology/forces would
>> also be helpful.
>>
>> I have a recurring knee pain, localized lower inside knee cap. Doctors have told me that it is
>> basic degeneration (arthritis?). It seems to come and go, but is definitely aggravated by certain
>> positions. I am about to start a series of position changes to study what is at work and what
>> makes things better. Rather than just start randomly moving things around, I'd like a good
>> orientation to the basic issues.
>
>I do a lot of long distance riding and I'm over 50. I've found that my knees (fortunately pretty
>injury free) are extremely sensitive to toe-in(out) settings on my cleats. I've also found they're
>somewhat less sensitive to cleat forward/back (like cleat back) and saddle height (that more
>affects lower back). Occasionally, I get the classic "under the kneecap" twinges. When that
>happens, I do the straight leg lifts that the sports med doc suggested 20+ years ago (patella
>tracking problem --> tendonitis) when I had similar pains from running (which he suggested I stop,
>& I did). Although I use pedals with relatively little float (SPD, ~4 deg), if I keep the cleats
>back (last position) and toe in the maximum amount, my knees remain happy, even though I put a
>substantial (~2,500 mi/yr) amount of riding on a fixed gear. Another thing to be careful about is
>to keep your knees warm, I did a double century not long ago with bare knees and temps in the 40's,
>and my knees got very unhappy. I'm also a believer in "vitamin I" (Ibuprofen), I think it's useful
>to prevent inflammation, I take some before most long rides.
>

Peter. You are one awesome and lucky guy. Kudos to the MAX, man.

What are your vitals (weight, height, etc.) Heh, I was gonna put VO2Max to tease you, but then
didn't think you'd know that. (I could be rong!) hehe.

-B

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1" standalone="yes"?>
<message newsgroup="rec.bicycles.misc">
<reference>
Rick Onanian <spamsink@cox.net> wrote:
: <pedant> That's supposed to be '/', not '\'. </pedant>
</reference> <rant type="pedant"> actually, rick .. i prefer this. <rant type="informative">
and, of course, it's possible to nest different types of rants inside each other. </rant>
</rant> <rant type="pontificate"> if we all use xml messages with rants suitably delineated
and with xml compliant browsers we can all turn on/off content we wish to view and make our
newsgroup experience so much the better. </rant> <spam> if you need help cut me a check.
</spam> <signature> david reuteler reuteler@visi.com </signature> </message

"Badger_South" <Badger@South.net> wrote
>
> Peter. You are one awesome and lucky guy. Kudos to the MAX, man.
>
> What are your vitals (weight, height, etc.) Heh, I was gonna put VO2Max to tease you, but then
> didn't think you'd know that. (I could be rong!) hehe.

Thanks. I guess I am pretty lucky health-wise. I'm 6'10", 235 lb (not a typo). I belong to a large
road club ( www.crw.org) in the Boston area, with ~1,000 members. We recently celebrated our 350th
consecutive Saturday morning "fitness" ride. These are done on 30-50 mile rolling courses where we
average anywhere from high teens to low 20's, depending on season. We had our coldest ride ever this
winter, -2 F at the starthttp://home.comcast.net/~peter_cole/P2190003.JPG). Most of the riders on
that ride were over 50, the woman on the far right just turned 60, and she completed the Paris-Brest-
Paris last year. So far my longest event has been 400K (250 mi), but I keep pushing the limits at
our local brevet series (http://www.gis.net/~ingle/bbs/). Our club also has a member who was the
first woman to finish the last P-B-P. It's a great club, a great area for cycling, and I have
Sheldon Brown right down the street, so no excuses. I got back into cycling 8-9 years ago, after a
long hiatus, and it's completely changed my ideas about age & fitness. Remarkably, I'm still
improving, I expect to set a new time trial PR this year. I'm not alone, the people in my age-group
seem to mostly still be improving also. One of the (over 50) guys rides several on & off road rides
every week, teaches 3 spinning classes, and is looking to beat the cross-state TT record. Another
guy completed the Boston-Montreal-Boston (750 mi, 35K' of climb, in <90 hr) 6 months after hip
replacement. Now that's hard core! My goal is to be the first 80 year old to do the BMB, heck, I've
got more than 25 years to train.

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 18:36:25 GMT, "Peter Cole"
<peter_cole_no_spam_at_all@comcast.net> wrote:

>"Badger_South" <Badger@South.net> wrote
>>
>> Peter. You are one awesome and lucky guy. Kudos to the MAX, man.
>>
>> What are your vitals (weight, height, etc.) Heh, I was gonna put VO2Max to tease you, but then
>> didn't think you'd know that. (I could be rong!) hehe.
>
>Thanks. I guess I am pretty lucky health-wise. I'm 6'10", 235 lb (not a typo). I belong to a large
>road club ( www.crw.org) in the Boston area, with ~1,000
......................^^^^ Was that a pun? All basketball players? <hehe>

>members. We recently celebrated our 350th consecutive Saturday morning "fitness" ride. These are
>done on 30-50 mile rolling courses where we average anywhere from high teens to low 20's, depending
>on season. We had our coldest ride ever this winter, -2 F at the
>starthttp://home.comcast.net/~peter_cole/P2190003.JPG). Most of the riders on that ride were over
>50, the woman on the far right just turned 60, and she completed the Paris-Brest-Paris last year.
>So far my longest event has been 400K (250 mi), but I keep pushing the limits at our local brevet
>series (http://www.gis.net/~ingle/bbs/). Our club also has a member who was the first woman to
>finish the last P-B-P. It's a great club, a great area for cycling, and I have Sheldon Brown right
>down the street, so no excuses. I got back into cycling 8-9 years ago, after a long hiatus, and
>it's completely changed my ideas about age & fitness. Remarkably, I'm still improving, I expect to
>set a new time trial PR this year. I'm not alone, the people in my age-group seem to mostly still
>be improving also. One of the (over 50) guys rides several on & off road rides every week, teaches
>3 spinning classes, and is looking to beat the cross-state TT record.

>Another guy completed the Boston-Montreal-Boston (750 mi, 35K' of climb, in <90 hr) 6 months after
>hip replacement. Now that's hard core!

<BONK!> <- sound of my jaw dropping on the floor! (not glucose deficiency)

> My goal is to be the first 80 year old to do the BMB, heck, I've got more than 25 years to train.

What's the oldest rider? That's not an easy course - we're talking 15degree grade and some
10degree, right?

Would you say that's comparable to the Iron Man, or harder? (I'm talking relative effort to the
whole course, not just the 112mi bike in windy, hot-box conditions)

-B

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 18:36:25 GMT, "Peter Cole"
<peter_cole_no_spam_at_all@comcast.net> wrote:
>Thanks. I guess I am pretty lucky health-wise. I'm 6'10", 235 lb (not a typo). I belong to a large
>road club ( www.crw.org) in the Boston area

Well, at that size, you certainly couldn't belong to a "small" road club. <G>
--
Rick Onanian

Dan Daniel <ddandan.remove@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<0jki30tkkkim7ucmuseputnobrselglu76@4ax.com>...
> I am looking for web sites that discuss knee problems for bicyclists and some of the adjustments
> that can be made in seat position and height. Anything on the general physiology/forces would also
> be helpful.
>
> I have a recurring knee pain, localized lower inside knee cap. Doctors have told me that it is
> basic degeneration (arthritis?). It seems to come and go, but is definitely aggravated by certain
> positions. I am about to start a series of position changes to study what is at work and what
> makes things better. Rather than just start randomly moving things around, I'd like a good
> orientation to the basic issues.
>
> Thanks.

try http://www.roadcycling.com/training/kneepain.shtml

good luck, Richard Stanz

"Badger_South" <Badger@South.net> wrote in message
news:4rdn30ddq72l0fm15va2gk0lajsgqpojbo@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 18:36:25 GMT, "Peter Cole" <peter_cole_no_spam_at_all@comcast.net> wrote:

> > My goal is to be the first 80 year old to do the BMB, heck, I've got more than 25 years to
> > train.
>
> What's the oldest rider? That's not an easy course - we're talking 15degree grade and some
> 10degree, right?

There was a British guy who did it in his 70's, I don't think he's still doing it, but I could be
wrong. I have a friend who did it in his 60's, but decided to stop as it "took too much out of him".
This same guy was famous locally for completing a BMB in his late 50's then driving to work &
putting in a full shift!

> Would you say that's comparable to the Iron Man, or harder? (I'm talking relative effort to the
> whole course, not just the 112mi bike in windy, hot-box conditions)

That's a difficult comparison. I think the 1200K ultra-cycling events are tougher from an endurance
point of view, simply because they last much longer. The premier long-distance cyclists commonly
ride continuously hard for 48 hours or so, with barely any rest breaks. The epitome of this is the
RAAM competitors who ride for a week or more. Even the back-of-the-pack finishers who beat the 90 hr
cutoff on a 1200K can spend ~70 hr of saddle time.

Even among enthusiastic cyclists, these endurance events are sometimes considered crazy. I think the
effort of pushing yourself way beyond your preconceived limits is a very rich experience. It's
definitely a roller coaster ride of highs and lows. If there's a brevet series in your area, and you
have any interest, I'd encourage you to give it a go.

"Rick Onanian" <spamsink@cox.net> wrote in message
news:eltn30pjm3g2ljrccnphhtreredbqhm06l@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 18:36:25 GMT, "Peter Cole" <peter_cole_no_spam_at_all@comcast.net> wrote:
> >Thanks. I guess I am pretty lucky health-wise. I'm 6'10", 235 lb (not a
typo).
> >I belong to a large road club ( www.crw.org) in the Boston area
>
> Well, at that size, you certainly couldn't belong to a "small" road club. <G>

I guess I left myself open for that one...

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 14:09:41 GMT, "Peter Cole"
<peter_cole_no_spam_at_all@comcast.net> wrote:

>"Badger_South" <Badger@South.net> wrote in message
>news:4rdn30ddq72l0fm15va2gk0lajsgqpojbo@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 18:36:25 GMT, "Peter Cole" <peter_cole_no_spam_at_all@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> > My goal is to be the first 80 year old to do the BMB, heck, I've got more than 25 years to
>> > train.
>>
>> What's the oldest rider? That's not an easy course - we're talking 15degree grade and some
>> 10degree, right?
>
>There was a British guy who did it in his 70's, I don't think he's still doing it, but I could be
>wrong. I have a friend who did it in his 60's, but decided to stop as it "took too much out of
>him". This same guy was famous locally for completing a BMB in his late 50's then driving to work &
>putting in a full shift!
>
>> Would you say that's comparable to the Iron Man, or harder? (I'm talking relative effort to the
>> whole course, not just the 112mi bike in windy, hot-box conditions)
>
>That's a difficult comparison. I think the 1200K ultra-cycling events are tougher from an endurance
>point of view, simply because they last much longer. The premier long-distance cyclists commonly
>ride continuously hard for 48 hours or so, with barely any rest breaks. The epitome of this is the
>RAAM competitors who ride for a week or more. Even the back-of-the-pack finishers who beat the 90
>hr cutoff on a 1200K can spend ~70 hr of saddle time.

Yes, I remember some coverage of the RAAM, and some of the bikers were actively hallucinating and
soforth, at times. I think you have to have a good support van to do this, although, no doubt some
have done without.

I also like the Eco-Challenge Adventure racing:

http://www.exn.ca/eco/full_team.asp

...but only as a spectator... ;-)

>Even among enthusiastic cyclists, these endurance events are sometimes considered crazy. I think
>the effort of pushing yourself way beyond your preconceived limits is a very rich experience. It's
>definitely a roller coaster ride of highs and lows. If there's a brevet series in your area, and
>you have any interest, I'd encourage you to give it a go.

I'm still at a very low level of riding ability, but I ride every day and push myself. Who knows
what another couple years of this will do. I've done a minor streak since August, with only a few
days missed due to snow, which I've tried to keep alive using the sta. bike, but that's cheating...
I'm at 138 continuous days (so to speak) since last Fall.

I'll do things to push beyond, like 'stranding' myself a little further out of town than I know I
can do, having the wife drop me off and then I have to make it home...I've done that jogging a few
times, but not on the bike lately.

-B

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: <snip problem description>

>
> First, try something really simple and free. Assuming you're using clipless pedals, move your
> cleats *back* (towards the rear of the shoe). This reduces the leverage that can be exerted on
> your tendons & ligaments and can sometimes yield miraculous results. Absolutely nothing to lose
> for trying, and it's worked for a lot of our customers (as well as myself, many years ago).

Mike,

I tried this today as my knees generally get a bit sore when cycling. As I had my cleats set up
'professionally' when I bought them a year ago I had put it down to 'just the way things are'.

Anyway, it has made a VERY significant difference!

So, thanks for one of the best bits of advice I've ever had off the internet.

Cheers!

Pete

>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"Badger_South" <Badger@South.net> wrote
>
> Yes, I remember some coverage of the RAAM, and some of the bikers were actively hallucinating and
> soforth, at times. I think you have to have a good support van to do this, although, no doubt some
> have done without.

We have a RAAM racer in our club too. There are various divisions (single, tandem, mixed-
tandem, 4-(wo)man team, etc.), but I think all rely on a van following behind to support &
light the way at night.

> I also like the Eco-Challenge Adventure racing:
>
> http://www.exn.ca/eco/full_team.asp
>
> ...but only as a spectator... ;-)

Yeah, they're fun to watch, but I've kind of lost my taste for spectator sports (except the Tour de France,
of course).

> I'm still at a very low level of riding ability, but I ride every day and push myself. Who knows
> what another couple years of this will do. I've done a minor streak since August, with only a few
> days missed due to snow, which I've tried to keep alive using the sta. bike, but that's
> cheating... I'm at 138 continuous days (so to speak) since last Fall.
>
> I'll do things to push beyond, like 'stranding' myself a little further out of town than I know I
> can do, having the wife drop me off and then I have to make it home...I've done that jogging a few
> times, but not on the bike lately.

I started out that way myself, going out solo on longer and longer loops, I would push the turn
around point further out the stronger I felt. I did my first century that way, solo & pretty much
unintentional. These days, I do most long distance riding with groups, although I frequently do
long stretches of it alone. As much as I like the company, there are very few butts I want to look
at all day long.

Around here (Boston) we're lucky enough to have enough long organized rides that you can pretty much
do one every week during the season. We also have the brevet series, the Pan Mass Challenge and the
BMB, all of which draw cyclists from out of state.

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 18:36:31 GMT, "Peter Cole"
<peter_cole_no_spam_at_all@comcast.net> wrote:

>I started out that way myself, going out solo on longer and longer loops, I would push the turn
>around point further out the stronger I felt. I did my first century that way, solo & pretty much
>unintentional.

Sure. Some days I feel strong and that's when I'd want to 'catch the wave', but in clarification,
you only know if you're 'strong' after you are out on the ride, IME, so that's a great strategy.

What I'd like to try is some long distances on the flat. My brother lives in Va Beach and there's a
loop there that I might ride, but the traffic is so bad down there that, gee, I'm not sure about it
these days.

Thanks for the tips, Peter.

-B

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 13:53:10 -0500, Badger_South <Badger@South.net>
wrote:

>On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 18:36:31 GMT, "Peter Cole" <peter_cole_no_spam_at_all@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>I started out that way myself, going out solo on longer and longer loops, I would push the turn
>>around point further out the stronger I felt. I did my first century that way, solo & pretty much
>>unintentional.
>
>Sure. Some days I feel strong and that's when I'd want to 'catch the wave', but in clarification,
>you only know if you're 'strong' after you are out on the ride, IME, so that's a great strategy.
>
>What I'd like to try is some long distances on the flat. My brother lives in Va Beach and there's a
>loop there that I might ride, but the traffic is so bad down there that, gee, I'm not sure about it
>these days.

That, and Va Beach is full of kite flyers. we know what *they're* like in traffic.

-Luigi

>
>Thanks for the tips, Peter.
>
>-B

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 15:11:49 -0500, Luigi de Guzman
<luigi12081@cox.net> wrote:

>>What I'd like to try is some long distances on the flat. My brother lives in Va Beach and there's
>>a loop there that I might ride, but the traffic is so bad down there that, gee, I'm not sure about
>>it these days.
>
>That, and Va Beach is full of kite flyers. we know what *they're* like in traffic.
>
>-Luigi

Nothing makes me as nervous as riding behind a long line of fisherman casting over the side of a
bridge. Since I have a couple of memories of removing fish hooks from thumbs from my childhood, it
doesn't take much imagination to make me drift further and further to the left.

Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels...

> > First, try something really simple and free. Assuming you're using
clipless
> > pedals, move your cleats *back* (towards the rear of the shoe). This reduces the leverage that
> > can be exerted on your tendons & ligaments and
can
> > sometimes yield miraculous results. Absolutely nothing to lose for
trying,
> > and it's worked for a lot of our customers (as well as myself, many
years
> > ago).
>
> Mike,
>
> I tried this today as my knees generally get a bit sore when cycling. As I had my cleats set up
> 'professionally' when I bought them a year ago I had put it down to 'just the way things are'.
>
> Anyway, it has made a VERY significant difference!

It's amazing how many people have been helped simply by moving their cleats towards the back of the
shoe, and yet you find virtually no mention of it anywhere. Glad it worked for you. It not for the
trouble I had in Colorado Springs back in 1986, I wouldn't have figured it out.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com