Yellow Line Rule & Crosswinds

"When I drove team cars I would often watch the whole pack ride on the yellow line and yet the right
gutter was open. Many riders race as if there werenothing but lemmings." -Tom Kunich

DISCLAIMER: I am not responsible for misinterprations of the following due to your not reading it
slow enough, not reading all of it, or possibly having the reading comprehension of a 6 year old.

Thanks Tom for generally supporting my position on yellow line rules. However, the above sentence
can be interpreted to mean that the actions of riders in a pack getting slammed by a crosswind are
without reason. Sure, it would be great if every rider in the world rode just like Div 1 pros, and
instantly set up a 15 man echelon beginning at the right gutter (wind from the right) until the last
man was on the yellow line, and then another echelon (beginning once again on the right gutter). and
on and on. Unfortunately, most riders don't do this and so when the wind hits, it is EITHER cross
the yellow line and try to get a draft OR get dropped.

So, to all of you who can't understand why a rider crosses the yellow line when there is such a rule
against it in some (SOME!, not 99% as Bob S. says) local events, the answer is: 1) start a new
echelon (as we just figured out above, doesn't happen) 2) cross the line and get a bit of draft, or
3) get dropped.

Again, I am NOT criticizing the bulk of American amateur road races. I travel all of the USA and
realize that in some locales, the yellow line rule is pretty much the rule of all road races in that
area. Nationwide, however, there are lots of closed or enclosed road or circuit courses. Even little
"amateur" ones!

My apologies to Bob S. for calling him a moron. I got a little p.o.'d when I read that he'd like to
stick some of my writing somewhere dark. Especially when he misunderstood what I wrote, or simply
interpreted it based on the thinking that 99% of American local races are yellow line, when the
percentage is much lower. I won't even guess what the percentage is, but considering that I've only
done a handful of yellow line races in my career and I've participated in tons of amateur, local
road/circuit road races in 17 years, I'd guess that yellow line rule races are less than 50% of all
road races nationwide.

John Lieswyn <jlieswyn@mchsi.com> wrote:
> My apologies to Bob S. for calling him a moron. I got a little p.o.'d when I read that he'd like
> to stick some of my writing somewhere dark. Especially when he misunderstood what I wrote, or
> simply interpreted it based on the thinking that 99% of American local races are yellow line, when
> the percentage is much lower. I won't even guess what the percentage is, but considering that I've
> only done a handful of yellow line races in my career and I've participated in tons of amateur,
> local road/circuit road races in 17 years, I'd guess that yellow line rule races are less than 50%
> of all road races nationwide.

OK. First, if you're going to insult me, especially in a forum like this, you've got to try lots
harder. So no apology is necessary. But if you ever *do* want to insult me please keep that in mind.

I just did a mental inventory of the road race schedule in Wisconsin. Some (not all) of Superweek
road races use a closed course. There are occasionally races at the Elkhart Lake race track, and
there are a couple of races/year at the abandoned Badger Ammo plant. Those are closed courses.
Military bases can work also, but no one has figured it out and with the way things are maybe no one
will. There aren't many possibilities anyway.

There are a number of races that start everyone together and use a camera to sort out the divisions
at the finish. Those (non-USCF, a very unique animal let me tell you) frequently will hire a single
cop car to lead the race. If you have to run a stop sign you will see a cop at the intersection. But
there is no rolling enclosure.

Maybe 20 years ago I was in a race with a rolling enclosure. It was a single field and they used a
cop motorcycle club that had volunteered their time and were using their own rides because cops in
Wisconsin get squad cars. It was one of the coolest races I have ever done, it was a thing of beauty
to watch them lead this race through a populated area. That was the only race with a rolling
enclosure I have ever done. If you had more than one field (like the overwhelming number of races
do) you couldn't do it.

There have been races I've been to that I felt had an unacceptable level of hairiness, and I never
went back. If VOS is in that category then yeah, people shouldn't go. Especially if it has been
consistently been hairy.

But if we are going to insist on a closed course or rolling enclosure then we are going to wipe the
bulk of the road race events in Wisconsin off the schedule. OK, maybe not 99%, but most of them. The
remainder will be a very small number. Looking at Minnesota I think LaPorte's NRC stuff gives you a
complete list of the non-yellow line action so you'd lose most there as well.

Bob Schwartz cvcc@execpc.com

Perhaps if those races were lost, the same or different race organizers could replace them with
ones that were in locations that could be closed or enclosured. If not, the races won't be missed
by me and those who feel that yellow line racing has too many problems (tactically and safety wise)
to warrant attending. Of course, these are just my opinions and for all those who like racing with
the yellow line rule, by all means go ahead. I give up trying to make the point. Happy Holidays to
all. -John

"Bob Schwartz" <cvcc@shell.core.com> wrote in message
news:3e022ffc$0$1397$1dc6e903@news.corecomm.net...
> John Lieswyn <jlieswyn@mchsi.com> wrote:
> > My apologies to Bob S. for calling him a moron. I got a little p.o.'d
when
> > I read that he'd like to stick some of my writing somewhere dark. Especially when he
> > misunderstood what I wrote, or simply interpreted it based on the thinking that 99% of American
> > local races are yellow line,
when
> > the percentage is much lower. I won't even guess what the percentage
is,
> > but considering that I've only done a handful of yellow line races in my career and I've
> > participated in tons of amateur, local road/circuit road races in 17 years, I'd guess that
> > yellow line rule races are less than
50%
> > of all road races nationwide.
>
> OK. First, if you're going to insult me, especially in a forum like this, you've got to try
> lots harder. So no apology is necessary. But if you ever *do* want to insult me please keep
> that in mind.
>
> I just did a mental inventory of the road race schedule in Wisconsin. Some (not all) of Superweek
> road races use a closed course. There are occasionally races at the Elkhart Lake race track, and
> there are a couple of races/year at the abandoned Badger Ammo plant. Those are closed courses.
> Military bases can work also, but no one has figured it out and with the way things are maybe no
> one will. There aren't many possibilities anyway.
>
> There are a number of races that start everyone together and use a camera to sort out the
> divisions at the finish. Those (non-USCF, a very unique animal let me tell you) frequently will
> hire a single cop car to lead the race. If you have to run a stop sign you will see a cop at the
> intersection. But there is no rolling enclosure.
>
> Maybe 20 years ago I was in a race with a rolling enclosure. It was a single field and they used a
> cop motorcycle club that had volunteered their time and were using their own rides because cops in
> Wisconsin get squad cars. It was one of the coolest races I have ever done, it was a thing of
> beauty to watch them lead this race through a populated area. That was the only race with a
> rolling enclosure I have ever done. If you had more than one field (like the overwhelming number
> of races do) you couldn't do it.
>
> There have been races I've been to that I felt had an unacceptable level of hairiness, and I never
> went back. If VOS is in that category then yeah, people shouldn't go. Especially if it has been
> consistently been hairy.
>
> But if we are going to insist on a closed course or rolling enclosure then we are going to wipe
> the bulk of the road race events in Wisconsin off the schedule. OK, maybe not 99%, but most of
> them. The remainder will be a very small number. Looking at Minnesota I think LaPorte's NRC stuff
> gives you a complete list of the non-yellow line action so you'd lose most there as well.
>
> Bob Schwartz cvcc@execpc.com

mgladu@mindspring.com (Mike Gladu) wrote in message news:<mgladu-2012020434090001@10.0.1.2>...
> Just before getting DQ'ed and yanked from the race by the Chief Ref in the lead vehicle, the rider
> 'on point' in this picture was all the way over on the RIGHT edge of the road (viewers
> perspective), trying to take away the draft in a local yellow line rule race.
>
> He was the only one who didn't have this really surprised expression when they suddenly pulled
> back to the center.
>
> The trailing echelon is lead by the local masters riders.
>
> http://users.htcomp.net/gladu/images...m/Yellline.jpg
>
> Extra points for identifying the riders.

Definitely Lance leading and perhaps Mike Murray on his wheel. Is that John Morestead a few back and
Dean Buzbee as the ticket puncher? Looks to be several NART riders plus a lanky Eric Marquez in the
second eschelon trying to organize. Time helmets sure were popular back then. Is this from the '92
Ronde von Cele road race?

Greg Hall

The Pomeranian <liftingleg@smellslikeakennel.com> wrote:
> Bob Schwartz wrote:
>>
>> John Lieswyn <jlieswyn@mchsi.com> wrote:
>> > My apologies to Bob S. for calling him a moron...
>
>> OK. First, if you're going to insult me, especially in a forum like this, you've got to try lots
>> harder.

> Dear Bob,

> You just aren't worth the effort.

> How was that?

> Sincerely, Yank

You are just barely scratching the surface of your potential. I've been reading netnews for a long
time, I know talent when I see it. I'm nervous about giving you too much praise because I don't want
you to feel too satisfied and plateau prematurely. You could be huge.

BTW It's been very interesting reading your stuff lately. We were on the same side of the Frankie
Andreau debate and I was just about to write up some thoughts about how silly it was to even begin
to care about doping at lower levels of the sport when you made the same post that I was thinking
of. Point by point. It was scary to read. Knock that **** off.

Bob Schwartz cvcc@execpc.com

Touche.

vc_slim@hotmail.com (Greg Hall) writes:

> mgladu@mindspring.com (Mike Gladu) wrote in message news:<mgladu-2012020434090001@10.0.1.2>...
> > Just before getting DQ'ed and yanked from the race by the Chief Ref in the lead vehicle, the
> > rider 'on point' in this picture was all the way over on the RIGHT edge of the road (viewers
> > perspective), trying to take away the draft in a local yellow line rule race.
> >
> > He was the only one who didn't have this really surprised expression when they suddenly pulled
> > back to the center.
> >
> > The trailing echelon is lead by the local masters riders.
> >
> > http://users.htcomp.net/gladu/images...m/Yellline.jpg
> >
> > Extra points for identifying the riders.
>
> Definitely Lance leading and perhaps Mike Murray on his wheel. Is that John Morestead a few back
> and Dean Buzbee as the ticket puncher? Looks to be several NART riders plus a lanky Eric Marquez
> in the second eschelon trying to organize. Time helmets sure were popular back then. Is this from
> the '92 Ronde von Cele road race?

LOL.

Does Gladu make a modest income off all those incriminating photos he's accumulated over the years?

-Gerard

"John Lieswyn" <jlieswyn@mchsi.com> wrote in message news:OHoM9.397473$WL3.117253@rwcrnsc54...
> "When I drove team cars I would often watch the whole pack ride on the yellow line and yet the
> right gutter was open. Many riders race as if
there
> werenothing but lemmings." -Tom Kunich
>
> DISCLAIMER: I am not responsible for misinterprations of the following due to your not reading it
> slow enough, not reading all of it, or possibly having the reading comprehension of a 6 year old.
>
> Thanks Tom for generally supporting my position on yellow line rules. However, the above sentence
> can be interpreted to mean that the actions of riders in a pack getting slammed by a crosswind are
> without reason. Sure, it would be great if every rider in the world rode just like Div 1 pros,
and
> instantly set up a 15 man echelon beginning at the right gutter (wind from the right) until the
> last man was on the yellow line, and then another echelon (beginning once again on the right
> gutter). and on and on. Unfortunately, most riders don't do this and so when the wind hits, it is
> EITHER cross the yellow line and try to get a draft OR get dropped.

John, perhaps you haven't seen it, but I've seen quite a few times when there was little or no wind
and a couple of fast guys were hugging the centerline and everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) was hanging
on their wheels and then once in awhile someone would try to pass on the wrong side of the yellow
line. All I could do is shake my head. The pack had enough power to go to the right and drop those
lead guys but you could see everyone concentrating on the wheel in front of them without a thought
in their heads.

After one of these races I listened to this stupid argument from some Cat 1 guy that was
disqualified for crossing the yellow line right as the race got back into town and traffic and when
he had to squeeze in between the pack and a car going the other way. I was behind the ref's car and
I thought that this guy was going to buy it for sure. Then he argues that he shouldn't be
disqualified.

My point on this is that people are too stupid to be able to follow a yellow line rule with any
degree of safety. While there hasn't been a lot of racers killed using yellow line rules there most
certainly has been a whole lot of close calls. And some of those close calls happened when there was
an alternate route through a safe section of the road.

<< From: "John Lieswyn" >>

<< Especially when he misunderstood what I wrote, >>

Maybe if you had gone to college instead of racing you're bike you would be a little bit more
articulate.

What are you going to do? race your bike until you are 45, bend over at the airport to tie you
shoelaces, slip a disc, then have to do mandatory retirement?

Andrew Albright

Bob Schwartz wrote:
>
> John Lieswyn <jlieswyn@mchsi.com> wrote:
> > My apologies to Bob S. for calling him a moron...

> OK. First, if you're going to insult me, especially in a forum like this, you've got to try
> lots harder.

Dear Bob,

You just aren't worth the effort.

How was that?

Sincerely, Yank

"Monkeyhillcs" <monkeyhillcs@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021219210536.11931.00000112@mb-fy.aol.com...

>
> Maybe if you had gone to college instead of racing you're bike you would
be a
> little bit more articulate.
>
> What are you going to do? race your bike until you are 45, bend over at
the
> airport to tie you shoelaces, slip a disc, then have to do mandatory retirement?
>
> Andrew Albright
>
>

Are you showing your inability to wage an intelligent argument against one with which you disagree
or just that you are a moral jackass?

In article <2GtM9.1272$cc1.421@tornadotest1.news.pas.earthlink.net>, "Tom Kunich"
<tkunich@earthlink.net> wrote:

> John, perhaps you haven't seen it, but I've seen quite a few times when there was little or no
> wind and a couple of fast guys were hugging the centerline and everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) was
> hanging on their wheels and then once in awhile someone would try to pass on the wrong side of the
> yellow line. All I could do is shake my head. The pack had enough power to go to the right and
> drop those lead guys but you could see everyone concentrating on the wheel in front of them
> without a thought in their heads.

Just before getting DQ'ed and yanked from the race by the Chief Ref in the lead vehicle, the rider
'on point' in this picture was all the way over on the RIGHT edge of the road (viewers perspective),
trying to take away the draft in a local yellow line rule race.

He was the only one who didn't have this really surprised expression when they suddenly pulled back
to the center.

The trailing echelon is lead by the local masters riders.

http://users.htcomp.net/gladu/images...m/Yellline.jpg

Extra points for identifying the riders.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Gladu - Cycling Photojournalist & webmaster of "the 'drome"
Email: mike@velodrome.com Online: http://www.velodrome.com/
================================================================
track racing discussion group: velodrome-subscribe@topica.com
================================================================

On 20 Dec 2002, Tom Kunich wrote:

> Surely you are new to the group if you have to ask questions like that to Albright, Palachick (aka
> Ronde Champ), "Sharon Peters", Patton or Legate.
>
Nice troll. I'd wage an intelligent arguement (IE) against you, but unfortunately IE and Tom Kunich
are mutually exclusive.

... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . legatek@mcmaster.ca Kyle Legate legatek@hotmail.com

Tower of Tongues:Thursday PM:10:30-11:30 EDT:http://cfmu.mcmaster.ca moon
musick:ritual:IDM:experimental(electronica):minimalism:glitch
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ...

> Just before getting DQ'ed and yanked from the race by the Chief Ref in the lead vehicle, the rider
> 'on point' in this picture was all the way over on the RIGHT edge of the road (viewers
> perspective), trying to take away the draft in a local yellow line rule race.
>
> He was the only one who didn't have this really surprised expression when they suddenly pulled
> back to the center.
>
> The trailing echelon is lead by the local masters riders.
>
> http://users.htcomp.net/gladu/images...m/Yellline.jpg
>
> Extra points for identifying the riders.
>
Lance leading--Carlson on his wheel. La Primavera, they actually enforced yellow line that year?

"Mike Gladu" <mgladu@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:mgladu-2012020434090001@10.0.1.2...
>
> http://users.htcomp.net/gladu/images...m/Yellline.jpg
>
> Extra points for identifying the riders.

Lance Armstrong leading Chann McRae?

JT

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"jomama" <jomama@jomamas.mama> wrote in message
news:<ZHwM9.814$NO4.67534977@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>...
> "Monkeyhillcs" <monkeyhillcs@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20021219210536.11931.00000112@mb-fy.aol.com...
>
> >
> > Maybe if you had gone to college instead of racing you're bike you would be a little bit more
> > articulate.
> >
> > What are you going to do? race your bike until you are 45, bend over at the airport to tie you
> > shoelaces, slip a disc, then have to do mandatory retirement?
>
> Are you showing your inability to wage an intelligent argument against one with which you disagree
> or just that you are a moral jackass?

Surely you are new to the group if you have to ask questions like that to Albright, Palachick (aka
Ronde Champ), "Sharon Peters", Patton or Legate.