Politically Incorrect. - Page 3

On Tue, 31 Dec 2002, Tom Kunich wrote:

> And I see dispicable people like Kyle suggest to me that I'm racist!
>
It's not a suggestion, it's a fact. Your racism goes much deeper than a single joke, as a simple
google search would confirm.

> Maybe you Canadians ought to study a bit more of your own history with special interest in the
> treatment of Indians and Inuit. And then perhaps you could stop telling Americans what is racist
> and what isn't.
>
Our histories with respect to native peoples are quite parallel. You have no moral high
ground to claim.

... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . legatek@mcmaster.ca Kyle Legate legatek@hotmail.com

Tower of Tongues:Thursday PM:10:30-11:30 EDT:http://cfmu.mcmaster.ca moon
musick:ritual:IDM:experimental(electronica):minimalism:glitch
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ...

On Tue, 31 Dec 2002, Tom Kunich wrote:

> On February 3, ABC aired a report by correspondent Deborah Amos in Toronto, depicting a country
> "struggling with universal healthcare." Most of Amos' report was taken up by grim descriptions of
> crowded hospitals: "The emergency rooms in Toronto hospitals are so clogged this winter, patients
> wait hours for critical treatment," Amos reported. "They sleep on stretchers in drafty hallways.
> And wait days for a hospital bed."
>
You claim this is a problem with Canada's universal healthcare without knowing or caring that
funding of hospitals is a provincial issue, and is therefore not universal. My health card won't do
me any good in Quebec.

... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . legatek@mcmaster.ca Kyle Legate legatek@hotmail.com

Tower of Tongues:Thursday PM:10:30-11:30 EDT:http://cfmu.mcmaster.ca moon
musick:ritual:IDM:experimental(electronica):minimalism:glitch
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ...

Tom Kunich wrote:
> "cucycln" <cucycln@bwr.eastlink.ca> wrote in message
> news:<qxgQ9.232408$C8.698659@nnrp1.uunet.ca>...
>
>>I see your point......but every senior care system is under attack. Look at Medicare......it's
>>ignoring the seniors, people can't afford the necessary drugs they need in the US too!
>
>
> Demand will ALWAYS outstrip the supply because most of the demand is manufactured by advertising
> instead of medical requirements.

But advertising and marketing is the capitalist way, whether we need a product or not. Are you
dissing capitalism here, Tom?

>
> I'm not an admirer of the American system by any stretch of the imagination. I've spent many years
> in medical instrument research and development and I've seen some pretty nasty stuff on the part
> of doctors and other commercial enterprises.

You sure have done a lot in your 80 years.

>
> You and I are the one's that will suffer because of the liberal policies. The uninterrupted flow
> of illegal aliens

Damn, we missed your ancestors, too.

Greg

--
"Destroy your safe and happy lives before it is too late, the battles we fought were long and hard,
just not to be consumed by rock n' roll..." - The Mekons

Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> ... When medical services are "free" people are going to use them for things that they wouldn't if
> they had to pay for it.

There's the crux of the matter. "Free" unequivocally means inelastic demand, and a lot of it. Of
course, it really isn't free. Doctors and nurses will parade around and say how much a national
(socialized) health care system is needed. What they are really saying is they want a job for life
with no risks and a guaranteed paycheck. Now who wouldn't love that? Let's all suck the tit of the
government forever. When Nader was asked at a 2k election speech at the Santa Cruz Civic Auditorium
who was going to pay for all his projected programs, he said: "the government will pay for it, the
government will pay for it." (As if once wasn't enough.) For some reason, the quizzers forgot to ask
him: "who is going to pay the government?" Of course, I already know. Corporations on corporate
welfare would be the obvious choice.

I just love it when it is all made so simple for retards like me. Who needs to bother thinking when
politicians and partisans can do our thinking for us, and do it for "free!?" They'll take care of
us. The check is in the mail.

"cucycln" <cucycln@bwr.eastlink.ca> wrote in message news:<qxgQ9.232408$C8.698659@nnrp1.uunet.ca>...
> I see your point......but every senior care system is under attack. Look at Medicare......it's
> ignoring the seniors, people can't afford the necessary drugs they need in the US too!

Demand will ALWAYS outstrip the supply because most of the demand is manufactured by advertising
instead of medical requirements. I'd be willing to bet that less than 20% of the medicine I've been
given over my lifetime was necessary and probably a lot of it was counterproductive.

Medicare was supposed to be a LAST DITCH medical system. Although it has never actually been that. I
think that P.J. O'Rourke's comments are substantially accurate. When medical services are "free"
people are going to use them for things that they wouldn't if they had to pay for it.

I'm not an admirer of the American system by any stretch of the imagination. I've spent many years
in medical instrument research and development and I've seen some pretty nasty stuff on the part of
doctors and other commercial enterprises.

What I don't like is that the Canadian system only works because of the specific conditions that the
Canadians have found themselves and those conditions are about to change. The USA never met those
specific conditions and national health care would bankrupt this nation even faster than Social
Security is going to.

Of course this didn't need to happen. An economically feasible Social Security system could have
been developed that would have met the original vision. But because it was necessary to adopt a
liberal policy to begin with due to the startup costs of Social Security the liberal views have held
sway ever since. Social Security has been expanded to cover every sob story and hard luck case
possible. My late drug addicted brother was on permanent disability of some sort that came from
Social Security in some manner. He simply didn't want to work and he was paid not to work. He lived
like a dog as you might well expect, but the government allowed it until he died from effects of his
addictions.

You and I are the one's that will suffer because of the liberal policies. The uninterrupted flow of
illegal aliens (California has been giving illegals welfare for decades), sad cases and plain old
criminals have gutted the system that we'll have to rely on. And why will we have to rely on it?
Because the taxes we have to pay to support this massive giveaway prevent us from making the
investments that would have freed us from the government dole.

That means that the younger generation - Palachick and Albright and Cipale and the lot, will be
paying for our welfare and it will grow much faster than their incomes. Are they going to be willing
to pay increased taxes to pay for the good feelings of yesterday's and today's liberals? I doubt it.
And what about their kids? Are they going to be willing to pay for the tail end of the baby boomers
and their own parents? And remember that as the baby boomers get older and retire many businesses
and consequently jobs will disappear. Fewer consumers mean lower demand. That is what is behind the
endless open door policy. The problem with that is the culture of the USA is taking an immense
beating from "diverse" cultures that don't share the same values as you and I. And these are the
people on whom you and I are going to have to rely to support us in our old age.

> You said that Canadians are coming across the boarder for drugs they can't get in Canada.....but
> then US citizens are running to get CHEAPER drugs then they can buy in the US....it's major
> problem for Canadians as it is driving up the price there too!

Canada has an approved generic drug list. If you need one of those drugs it is a great deal cheaper
in Canada than in the USA. However, it takes a very long time to get a drug on that list if it ever
gets there. Therefore Canada tends to have drugs that are less effective and cheaper rather than
more effective and more expensive. Canadians come south to the USA to get these drugs so there is
all of this two way traffic going to and fro across the border and it all has to do with the
limitations of socialized medicine.

> Then there is Mexico.....where everyone is going! So it's major problem everywhere!

Mexico has an almost uncontrolled drug industry. Therefore there are no extraneous costs associated
with releasing drugs there and profits are easier to make with lower drug costs. Moreover, since the
income levels in Mexico are so low, without cheap drugs there would be no sales at all.

And in the unioncorporated areas in Mexico such as Baja, the government subsidizes cheap housing and
medical supplies and treatment in order to get Mexicans to live out there in the middle of nowhere.
So if you know where to go you get drugs for a scant fraction of what they would cost in the USA.

However, like in Canada, they aren't likely to have the newest and most efficacious drugs because of
the expense prevents a market from forming.

> What I fail to see is that US entire system that's catering to Canadians.............? Or did I
> read you wrong?

I didn't say that the ENTIRE system was catering to the Canadians. I said a segment. And all of the
northern cities have hospitals that connect with Canadian doctors. These doctors have licenses to
practice in the US and they also get referal fees for refering Canadian citizens to American
hospitals.

The Canadian heath care system works extremely well for a young healthy population in which "health
care" is really an emergency treatment room for broken arms and legs and the like. Just like the
military service, as the population grows older and less healthy and puts more demands on the health
care system the financial demands on the system simply blow completely out of proportion to what the
funding will allow.

Military lifers were promised lifetime health care but as soon as the going got rough the military
saw the writing on the walls and simply withdrew most of it. Canada will go through the same thing
sooner or later and it looks like sooner now.

"Kyle Legate" <legatek@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca> wrote in message
news:Pine.SOL.4.33.0212301151050.138...is.mcmaster.ca...
> On 30 Dec 2002, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> > The politically correct, and especially those Canadians who think that they ought to be able to
> > tell Americans how they should think are pretty funny as well.
> >
> You should take it as contructive criticism; the world would hate you less.

Like you, the world doesn't hate the USA when they're in trouble and need assistance.

> > Who else but a Canadian would espouse the wonderful Canadian healthcare system to the world
> > while their entire family is flocking over the border to get up-to-date and punctual
> > medical care?
> >
> You bring this up now and then, and it's obvious that you haven't a clue what you're talking
> about. I'd laugh if it wasn't so pathetic.

The pathetic part about all of this is the patent denial of Canadians when there is an entire market
segment of the US health care system devoted entirely to Canadians.

"Tom Kunich" <tkunich@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Ix5Q9.3736$134.448672@newsread1....earthlink.net...
> "Canuck" <warmsd@simpatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:k_ZP9.40110$VA5.7724823@news1.news.adelphia.net...
> >
> > "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:484e7721.0212300652.1d05bf39@posting.google.com...
> > >
> > > But you see, if it were a joke making fun of the pronouciation by some white southern cracker
> > > it would be OK.
> >
> > That would be the same thing as the original joke.
>
> I see, you are an equal opportunity sourpuss.

How is that?

I offered no judgements on whether ethnic or racial jokes are tasteful/tasteless. My posts only
tried to define what is and isn't 'racial'.

Tom....point out your source of facts on this.... or you just shooting from the hip because you are
so bored and have nothing else to do? again!
> The pathetic part about all of this is the patent denial of Canadians when there is an entire
> market segment of the US health care system devoted entirely to Canadians.

"Canuck" <warmsd@simpatico.ca> wrote in message
news:k_ZP9.40110$VA5.7724823@news1.news.adelphia.net...
>
> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:484e7721.0212300652.1d05bf39@posting.google.com...
> >
> > But you see, if it were a joke making fun of the pronouciation by some white southern cracker it
> > would be OK.
>
> That would be the same thing as the original joke.

I see, you are an equal opportunity sourpuss.

The Pomeranian wrote:
> Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>>... When medical services are "free" people are going to use them for things that they wouldn't if
>>they had to pay for it.
>
>
> There's the crux of the matter. "Free" unequivocally means inelastic demand, and a lot of it. Of
> course, it really isn't free. Doctors and nurses will parade around and say how much a national
> (socialized) health care system is needed. What they are really saying is they want a job for life
> with no risks and a guaranteed paycheck. Now who wouldn't love that? Let's all suck the tit of the
> government forever.
>

What a simplistic way to ignore all those that have no medical coverage and can't afford to pay for
medical visits. What is your solution? To ban government healthcare subsidies, even ban health
insurance altogether, and let the free-market price all those illegal aliens right out of the
country while also pricing those citizens under the poverty-level out of life?

Greg
--
"Destroy your safe and happy lives before it is too late, the battles we fought were long and hard,
just not to be consumed by rock n' roll..." - The Mekons

"cucycln" <cucycln@bwr.eastlink.ca> wrote in message news:cd6Q9.232321$C8.696966@nnrp1.uunet.ca...
> Tom....point out your source of facts on this.... or you just shooting
from
> the hip because you are so bored and have nothing else to do? again!

> > The pathetic part about all of this is the patent denial of Canadians
when
> > there is an entire market segment of the US health care system devoted entirely to Canadians.

Isn't it about time you try to school us all in what racist ideas I have?

San Francisco, CA - While American politicians tout Canadian health care and lead bus tours across
the border, Canadians themselves increasingly board buses for the United States to seek treatment
and purchase prescription drugs not available under their own government plan. This is according to
Lessons from the North: Bus Travelers Bring the Reality of Rationed Health Care and Price-Controlled
Drugs over the Border, a briefing released today by the Pacific Research Institute (PRI).

On February 3, ABC aired a report by correspondent Deborah Amos in Toronto, depicting a country
"struggling with universal healthcare." Most of Amos' report was taken up by grim descriptions of
crowded hospitals: "The emergency rooms in Toronto hospitals are so clogged this winter, patients
wait hours for critical treatment," Amos reported. "They sleep on stretchers in drafty hallways. And
wait days for a hospital bed."

"If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it's free."
- P.J. O'Rourke

By William McArthur, former chief coroner for British Columbia. He is a palliative care physician
and senior fellow in health policy studies at the Fraser Institute.

(speaking about Canada's health care system) "Canadians over the age of 65 use health care at four
times the rate of those under 65 and thus are more exposed to the deficiencies. Moreover, the
treatments elders need most often are the ones where the worst shortages exist. According to the
Fraser Institute's annual survey of hospital waiting lists, the median patient waits 70% longer than
is medically reasonable, in the view of their physicians. Waits for cardiac surgery are 145% longer
than medically reasonable, 90% longer for orthopedics (hips and knees) and 75% longer for
ophthalmologic (cataracts and lens replacement) surgery." (Note the term "medically reasonable" - do
you understand what that means?)

From the von Mises Institute:

"This popular superficial view of Canada's health care system as the national "sacred trust" and the
envy of the rest of the world does not reveal how poorly informed people really are about how health
care is funded and delivered. In fact, if Canadians knew as much as they think they do about the
economic and moral workings of Medicare, they might not be as enthusiastic as they are about their
cherished right to "free" health care."

In case you think that the Canadian government doesn't know it what about this statement by a
Canadian MP?

"Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, today 200,000 Canadians are still on waiting
lines in hospitals. But if they are wealthy or desperate they could jump the queue and fly down to
the United States for treatment. They could pay cash for health care. If that is not two tier, if
that is not American style health care, I do not know what is."

The facts are that Canada has benefitted from the fact that they are a far healthier population from
the start then the much more greatly mixed American population. They admit as much. Also the
Canadian medical system is one of medical rationing and not one of medical service. This works
passably well when the population is young and healthy but when Canada's baby boomers start putting
a greater strain on their system as is just beginning, it is likely to collapse like the house of
cards that it is.

"G.T." <ethan_t@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:V1qQ9.2462$Um3.192640137@newssv...ws.prodigy.com...
>
> What a simplistic way to ignore all those that have no medical coverage
and
> can't afford to pay for medical visits. What is your solution? To ban government healthcare
> subsidies, even ban health insurance altogether, and let the free-market price all those illegal
> aliens right out of the
country
> while also pricing those citizens under the poverty-level out of life?

So your way is to tax me while I'm working so that I can't save any money for retirement and then
let the system callapse after all of the boomers hit retirement age. I must say, I like the way you
are willing to trade my freedom for someone else's.

"Canuck" <warmsd@simpatico.ca> wrote in message
newsg6Q9.40385$VA5.7862098@news1.news.adelphia.net...
>
> "Tom Kunich" <tkunich@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:Ix5Q9.3736$134.448672@newsread1....earthlink.net...
> > "Canuck" <warmsd@simpatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:k_ZP9.40110$VA5.7724823@news1.news.adelphia.net...
> > >
> > > "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:484e7721.0212300652.1d05bf39@posting.google.com...
> > > >
> > > > But you see, if it were a joke making fun of the pronouciation by
some
> > > > white southern cracker it would be OK.
> > >
> > > That would be the same thing as the original joke.
> >
> > I see, you are an equal opportunity sourpuss.
>
> How is that?
>
> I offered no judgements on whether ethnic or racial jokes are tasteful/tasteless. My posts only
> tried to define what is and isn't 'racial'.

In order to be racist a comment has to be desired to be racist. A comment about someone being black
and being negative about that person isn't enough to make it a racist comment. A comment about a
Chinese accent may be hurtful to someone especially sensitive but that doesn't rise to the level of
racism and you seem incapable of knowing the difference.

All you have to do is to turn on network news any day of the week and you'll see network newscasters
slandering men in general, white men in particular, anyone with money, anyone that opposes raising
taxes, anyone that wants to straighten out social security so that it really will be a security net
(check out Paterson's comments lately) or anyone that has any sort of conservative position even if
that person is a died-in-the-wool extreme left wing liberal. It is perfectly OK in the general media
to degrade these people and stultify their ideas.

Some guy named Goldberg wrote an article for the Wall Street Journal in which he took that extremist
conservative position, that network news should try to deliver a balanced view of the political
spectrum. He reported that CBS news and all of the other network news bureaus, as shown by study
after study, were wildly liberal and as a result quite by accident and not design, the liberal view
some but not most of the news delivered.

Goldberg admits that he has never in his life voted for a Republican, that he has consistantly
supported liberal causes. He only felt that the news should be reported even-handedly and without a
hidden (actually who believes that it is hidden in the least?) liberal agenda.

He was driven from CBS, his 20 year career as a news reporter destroyed. CBS in the form of such
notables as Dan Rather declared him persona non grata and Rather refered to Goldberg, a Jewish
liberal if ever there was one, as having a "well known conservative political agenda".

The point of all this is that the meaning of racist and racism has been distorted far beyond what it
really is by people who are staggeringly wealthy and whose feelings of guilt for doing so little to
earn that wealth has led them to believe and the entire white race has it too easy and that we ought
to be taxed into oblivion to pay for every supposed affront to any non-white minority. Since most of
them live in almost entirely white suburbs or white enclaves where their children go to almost
entirely white highend schools they haven't a clue what is happening out here in the real world
where 97% of the white men have to work their asses off to make a lower middle class living and who
are taxed to the breaking point.

Well, all you have to do is read history to find that blacks were the one's that sold blacks into
slavery the largest percentage of the time. Arab traders would pay coastal tribes for black slaves
and those coastal tribes would raid inland tribes for slaves. Whites were a long ways down the
slavery food chain and that is a fact. In many areas of Africa TODAY slavery is still practiced
though it is generally given lip service as being illegal. Consider where the idea of black Muslims
came from - you couldn't be freed by a Muslim unless you declared yourself a Muslim! Do we hear
about those people actually practicing slavery as being evil? No, all of today's white Americans are
held as guilty despite the fact that less than 1% of them come from families that ever held slaves.
I am forced to pay taxes that are used by my government to give advantages to blacks that I never
had and despite the fact that my family didn't come to this country until after the civil war and
despite the fact that my heritage is Croatian, Irish and Jewish - all groups that were held as
slaves or near slaves. The word "slave" comes from the name of my race.

And I see dispicable people like Kyle suggest to me that I'm racist!

Maybe you Canadians ought to study a bit more of your own history with special interest in the
treatment of Indians and Inuit. And then perhaps you could stop telling Americans what is racist and
what isn't.

"G.T." <ethan_t@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:V1qQ9.2462$Um3.192640137@newssv...ws.prodigy.com...
>
>
> What a simplistic way to ignore all those that have no medical coverage
and
> can't afford to pay for medical visits. What is your solution? To ban government healthcare
> subsidies, even ban health insurance altogether, and let the free-market price all those illegal
> aliens right out of the
country
> while also pricing those citizens under the poverty-level out of life?

Here I was thinking you are a crusty old man and you break out the compassionate side.

G.T. wrote:
>
> The Pomeranian wrote:
> > Tom Kunich wrote:
> >
> >>... When medical services are "free" people are going to use them for things that they wouldn't
> >>if they had to pay for it.
> >
> >
> > There's the crux of the matter. "Free" unequivocally means inelastic demand, and a lot of it. Of
> > course, it really isn't free. Doctors and nurses will parade around and say how much a national
> > (socialized) health care system is needed. What they are really saying is they want a job for
> > life with no risks and a guaranteed paycheck. Now who wouldn't love that? Let's all suck the tit
> > of the government forever.
> >
>
> What a simplistic way to ignore all those that have no medical coverage and can't afford to pay
> for medical visits.

Retard, where did I say anyone should be ignored? What I more or less said was the medical industry,
not the customers of it, shouldn't get government tit sucking privileges at _everyone else's_
expense, including all those poor folks. I say that because I care about the customers, including
all those poor folks.

> What is your solution?

To steal Grinch's Cold War line (sort of): "Oh, that's amusing, _solve the healthcare crisis_ in a
usenet post." Thanks, but no thanks.

> To ban government healthcare subsidies, even ban health insurance altogether, and let the
> free-market price all those illegal aliens right out of the country while also pricing those
> citizens under the poverty-level out of life?

Retard, where, how, and why do you dream all this **** up? Do you know why inelastic demand, and a
lot of it, is a problem? For your benefit, the answer is in the question.