I was at a club race meeting the other day and was listening to all the conversations about these
"Dope heads" in professional cycling. The most verbal rider was really going on about using drugs.
He loudly denounced all drug use. This started me thinking, When I do a longish ride (80-100 Ks) I
use XLR8, Occasionally a can of coke towards the end of the ride, which really is a good "pick me
up" for a short period. I now discover that the loudest proponent against drugs in cycling has this
"energy system" About ten K's before the end of a race he will pop a No-Doz (Keep awake) pill and
down a can of flat (Well shaken) coke. Now to me he is as bad as any "dope head" in any peleton,
professional or not. To me doping is doping, but where does "doping' start? Am I a doper as I take
substances that increase my riding ability for a short while? I think many of us need to think
carefully about what we use ourselves before condemning any body else. Sure any illegal substance
should be dealt to, but just a note of caution about what we ourselves use. Reading the labels on
some of these new "energy" drinks has startled the "Begabbers" out of me. The crap they put in these
drinks!! I know that now I need to be much more careful about what I use on my biddens. Just a
thought Doer.

In rec.bicycles.racing Doer <ro@net.nz> wrote:

> When I do a longish ride (80-100 Ks) I use XLR8, Occasionally a can of coke towards the end of the
> ride, which really is a good "pick me up" for a short period. I now discover that the loudest
> proponent against drugs in cycling has this "energy system" About ten K's before the end of a race
> he will pop a No-Doz (Keep awake) pill and down a can of flat (Well shaken) coke. Now to me he is
> as bad as any "dope head" in any peleton, professional or not.

Dude,

Either you are the same guy who posted this message last month about No-Doz and doping:

<http://groups.google.com/groups?q=no...en&lr=&ie=UTF-
8&selm=3fe6b684%241%40darkstar&rnum=4>

or you Kiwis really have an unhealthy obsession with No-Doz. Stewart Fleming, can we get a ruling
here? Jeez. It's just like drinking a cup of coffee, only not as enjoyable.

> To me doping is doping, but where does "doping' start? Am I a doper as I take substances that
> increase my riding ability for a short while? I think many of us need to think carefully about
> what we use ourselves before condemning any body else. Sure any illegal substance should be dealt
> to, but just a note of caution about what we ourselves use.

You're blurring a distinction, like between over the counter medication and abusing prescription
drugs for one thing. Do you really think popping a No-Doz and flat coke is on the same ethical level
as bulking up on steroids or sludging up on EPO?

Benjamin Weiner wrote:

> Either you are the same guy who posted this message last month about No-Doz and doping:
>
> <http://groups.google.com/groups?q=no...en&lr=&ie=UTF-
> 8&selm=3fe6b684%241%40darkstar&rnum=4>
>
> or you Kiwis really have an unhealthy obsession with No-Doz. Stewart Fleming, can we get a ruling
> here? Jeez. It's just like drinking a cup of coffee, only not as enjoyable.

Perhaps Steward will take the 5th Amendment when it comes to Kiwis having unhealthy obsessions :-)

"Benjamin Weiner" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote in message

> You're blurring a distinction, like between over the counter medication and abusing prescription
> drugs for one thing. Do you really think popping a No-Doz and flat coke is on the same ethical
> level as bulking up on steroids or sludging up on EPO?

You're operating at the most egregious extremes and acting like every situation is cut and dried.
The distinction is already very blurry.

Is it okay to take a no-doze half way through a race, because you recognize that caffeine has
performance enhancing properties that are advantageous? What about two or three no-doze? As long as
I don't violate the number in the piss test, I didn't cheat, right? Now, what if I decide to also
take ephedrine, but take it at a level that will be below that which will make you test positive at
the published limit? Is that cheating?

Now howabout testosterone: Endurance athletes are known to have testosterone levels drop over
the course of long events (e.g., a 10 day - 3 week tour). Is it okay for the team doctor to
monitor testosterone levels and, when they start to drop off, inject riders to bring them back
to normal levels?

Howabout blood boosters? If I take drugs that increase my hematocrit, but I don't exceed the 50%
rule, have I really broken the rules? What if I don't do any drugs, and I sleep in a hyperbaric
chamber and spike my hematocrit over 50, does that mean that I'm a cheater?

When you get right down to it, the only way to determine cheating from non-cheating is to compare
behavior and (where applicable) lab results to the letter of the rules, and where it is violative in
a specific, non-subjective manner, then its cheating. That's why the real trick is to write rules
that are enforceable and that make sense.

im thinking illegal should mean anything that has to be given out by a doctor. anything over the
counter should be legal as long as your under the limit, I.e. caffeine., effies, the likes.

Isn't EPO an OTC drug in some countries???

__________________
-Brent

"hold my beer and watch this..." <trdina@dejazzd.com> wrote in message news:<_tqdnVNJxZl1rIfdRVn-gQ@dejazzd.com>...
>
> Is it okay to take a no-doze half way through a race, because you recognize that caffeine has
> performance enhancing properties that are advantageous? What about two or three no-doze? As long
> as I don't violate the number in the piss test, I didn't cheat, right?

Right.

JT

"hold my beer and watch this..." wrote:
>
> "Benjamin Weiner" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote in message
>
> > You're blurring a distinction, like between over the counter medication and abusing prescription
> > drugs for one thing. Do you really think popping a No-Doz and flat coke is on the same ethical
> > level as bulking up on steroids or sludging up on EPO?
>
> You're operating at the most egregious extremes and acting like every situation is cut and dried.
> The distinction is already very blurry.
>
> Is it okay to take a no-doze half way through a race, because you recognize that caffeine has
> performance enhancing properties that are advantageous? What about two or three no-doze? As long
> as I don't violate the number in the piss test, I didn't cheat, right? Now, what if I decide to
> also take ephedrine, but take it at a level that will be below that which will make you test
> positive at the published limit? Is that cheating?
>
> Now howabout testosterone: Endurance athletes are known to have testosterone levels drop over
> the course of long events (e.g., a 10 day - 3 week tour). Is it okay for the team doctor to
> monitor testosterone levels and, when they start to drop off, inject riders to bring them back
> to normal levels?
>
> Howabout blood boosters? If I take drugs that increase my hematocrit, but I don't exceed the 50%
> rule, have I really broken the rules? What if I don't do any drugs, and I sleep in a hyperbaric
> chamber and spike my hematocrit over 50, does that mean that I'm a cheater?
>
> When you get right down to it, the only way to determine cheating from non-cheating is to compare
> behavior and (where applicable) lab results to the letter of the rules, and where it is violative
> in a specific, non-subjective manner, then its cheating.

I think you just answered your own questions.

> That's why the real trick is to write rules that are enforceable and that make sense.

Today, the folks that go into that "business of writing the rules" aren't all that bright, or have
other objectives, which may or may not be public. Dream on.

Doer wrote:

> I was at a club race meeting the other day and was listening to all the conversations about these
> "Dope heads" in professional cycling. The most verbal rider was really going on about using drugs.
> He loudly denounced all drug use. This started me thinking, When I do a longish ride (80-100 Ks) I
> use XLR8, Occasionally a can of coke towards the end of the ride, which really is a good "pick me
> up" for a short period. I now discover that the loudest proponent against drugs in cycling has
> this "energy system" About ten K's before the end of a race he will pop a No-Doz (Keep awake) pill
> and down a can of flat (Well shaken) coke. Now to me he is as bad as any "dope head" in any
> peleton, professional or not.

Go and read what Eddie B used to recommend as "rocket fuel" for the last 30km of a 160km road
race... Caffeine is legal in 2004.

Benjamin Weiner wrote:

> or you Kiwis really have an unhealthy obsession with No-Doz. Stewart Fleming, can we get a ruling
> here? Jeez. It's just like drinking a cup of coffee, only not as enjoyable.

I have some in the bathroom cabinet, just like VDB. I never touched the stuff. It's for my
mother-in-law.

I know anecdotally that it is used in NZ races, even at club level. Who cares? It's legal
now anyway.

Donald Munro wrote:

> Benjamin Weiner wrote:
>
>
>>Either you are the same guy who posted this message last month about No-Doz and doping:
>>
>><http://groups.google.com/groups?q=no...en&lr=&ie=UTF-
>>8&selm=3fe6b684%241%40darkstar&rnum=4>
>>
>>or you Kiwis really have an unhealthy obsession with No-Doz. Stewart Fleming, can we get a ruling
>>here? Jeez. It's just like drinking a cup of coffee, only not as enjoyable.
>
>
> Perhaps Steward will take the 5th Amendment when it comes to Kiwis having unhealthy obsessions :-)

Bungee jumping, jet boating, mountain climbing, paragliding, heli-skiing, sheep shagging. 5 out of 6
of those activities are legal. As for obsessives, you should see the local Scrabble set...

leif_ericson wrote:

> Jtn wrote:
> > im thinking illegal should mean anything that has to be given out by a doctor. anything over
> > the counter should be legal as long as your under the limit, I.e. caffeine., effies, the
> > likes.
>
>
>
> Isn't EPO an OTC drug in some countries???

WTF is Evening Primrose Oil gonna do to enhance performance? It might stop the hot flushes, but...

So when Rumsas said the EPO was for his mother-in-law, he could have been telling the truth...

"JTN" <jtn@usps.com> wrote in message news:<101kukbin1im802@corp.supernews.com>...
> im thinking illegal should mean anything that has to be given out by a doctor. anything over the
> counter should be legal as long as your under the limit, I.e. caffeine., effies, the likes.

That would make Cellebrex illegal and 1-testosterone legal. Try again.

"JTN" <jtn@usps.com> wrote in message news:<101kukbin1im802@corp.supernews.com>...
> im thinking illegal should mean anything that has to be given out by a doctor. anything over the
> counter should be legal as long as your under the limit, I.e. caffeine., effies, the likes.

That's a good rule.

I also think that if you cut the course, it should only be illegal if

at the bar, it shouldn't be considered cheating if you wear a condom and no one finds out about it.

crap....obviously.....

if that maks 1-testo legal than it should be if you can take it without a doctors script.....

me personally, i only take cliff bars and r4, without a docs script of course. with a script i
couldnt begin to tell ya my doping habits.....

"Steven" <crewiscool42@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a3eee1a5.0401301302.109b3736@posting.google.com...
> "JTN" <jtn@usps.com> wrote in message
news:<101kukbin1im802@corp.supernews.com>...
> > im thinking illegal should mean anything that has to be given out by a doctor. anything over the
> > counter should be legal as long as your under
the
> > limit, I.e. caffeine., effies, the likes.
>
> That would make Cellebrex illegal and 1-testosterone legal. Try again.