Making a bicycle route in Delorme SA2003, TopoUSA4 or Mapsource Metroguide

In July 1997 I plotted a route from Philadelphia to Williamsburg VA using
Delorme Ver 3 and bicentennial copy of Adventure Cycling East Coast map. The
Bicentennial maps was from Baltimore to Fredericksburg. Delorme was use for
the other distances including the return through the DeMaVa Peninsula. The
following, with Garmin GPS II+ I plotted a bicycled from Philadelphia to
Wellesley MA using a computer and moving map.
http://www.billcotton.com/bike.htm
I have since made constant use of the Delorme and Mapsource software for
route making for club rides. I have found ways to help the software to use
the type of roads that I prefers to uses. I will give a talk on this subject
this Sunday March 27, 2004 at the Trophy bicycle shop in Philadelphia PA. A
outline of my procedure is post here
http://www.billcotton.com/Mapping%20...ing%20text.prn

--
Billcotton@billcotton.com www.billcotton.com N40° 3.744'
W75° 6.180'

"Bill Cotton" <Billcotton@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Pv2dnc4cxud3JP_dRVn-hA@comcast.com...
> In July 1997 I plotted a route from Philadelphia to
> Williamsburg VA using Delorme Ver 3 and bicentennial copy
> of Adventure Cycling East Coast map.
The
> Bicentennial maps was from Baltimore to Fredericksburg.
> Delorme was use
for
> the other distances including the return through the
> DeMaVa Peninsula. The following, with Garmin GPS II+ I
> plotted a bicycled from Philadelphia to Wellesley MA using
> a computer and moving map.
> http://www.billcotton.com/bike.htm I have since made
> constant use of the Delorme and Mapsource software for
> route making for club rides. I have found ways to help the
> software to use the type of roads that I prefers to uses.
> I will give a talk on this
subject
> this Sunday March 27, 2004 at the Trophy bicycle shop in
> Philadelphia PA.
A
> outline of my procedure is post here http://www.billcotto-
> n.com/Mapping%20and%20route%20making%20text.prn
>
>
> --
> Billcotton@billcotton.com www.billcotton.com N40° 3.744'
> W75° 6.180'
>

Thanks for the info. I use Topo USA 4.0, but wish it had a
better user interface...it is very kludgy, and recently the
"Search" feature has stopped working on my system.

Have you compared the "Climbing Elevation" reported by Topo
USA to what your GPS shows? In my experience, Topo USA
overstates climbing elevation by 10-30%, depending on the
route. I base this on comparisons with two different
recording altimeters (an Avocet Vertech watch, and a Vetta
V100A cycle computer). In my comparisons, the Delorme
software always reported the highest amount of climbing
elevation, followed by the Vetta and the Avocet. I suspect
the Avocet is on the low side, because of it's 10 meter
trigger point for elevation gain (the Vetta's trigger seems
to be 1 meter).

--
~_-* ...G/ \G http://www.CycliStats.com CycliStats -
Software for Cyclists

"GaryG" <garyg@shasta_SPAMBEGONE_software.com> wrote in message
news:10668so13t2v378@corp.supernews.com...
> "Bill Cotton" <Billcotton@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:Pv2dnc4cxud3JP_dRVn-hA@comcast.com...
> > In July 1997 I plotted a route from Philadelphia to
> > Williamsburg VA
using
> > Delorme Ver 3 and bicentennial copy of Adventure Cycling
> > East Coast map.
> The
> > Bicentennial maps was from Baltimore to Fredericksburg.
> > Delorme was use
> for
> > the other distances including the return through the
> > DeMaVa Peninsula.
The
> > following, with Garmin GPS II+ I plotted a bicycled from
> > Philadelphia to Wellesley MA using a computer and moving
> > map. http://www.billcotton.com/bike.htm I have since
> > made constant use of the Delorme and Mapsource software
> > for route making for club rides. I have found ways to
> > help the software to
use
> > the type of roads that I prefers to uses. I will give a
> > talk on this
> subject
> > this Sunday March 27, 2004 at the Trophy bicycle shop in
> > Philadelphia
PA.
> A
> > outline of my procedure is post here http://www.billcot-
> > ton.com/Mapping%20and%20route%20making%20text.prn
> >
> >
> > --
> > Billcotton@billcotton.com www.billcotton.com N40° 3.744'
> > W75° 6.180'
> >
>
> Thanks for the info. I use Topo USA 4.0, but wish it had a
> better user interface...it is very kludgy, and recently
> the "Search" feature has
stopped
> working on my system.
>
> Have you compared the "Climbing Elevation" reported by
> Topo USA to what
your
> GPS shows? In my experience, Topo USA overstates climbing
> elevation by 10-30%, depending on the route. I base this
> on comparisons with two different recording altimeters (an
> Avocet Vertech watch, and a Vetta V100A cycle computer).
> In my comparisons, the Delorme software always reported
> the highest amount of climbing elevation, followed by the
> Vetta and the Avocet. I suspect the Avocet is on the low
> side, because of it's 10 meter trigger point for elevation
> gain (the Vetta's trigger seems to be 1
meter).
>
> --
> ~_-* ...G/ \G http://www.CycliStats.com CycliStats -
> Software for Cyclists

I never used a Vetta or Avocet but being aware of the
trigger points as you mention, I feel that even if you coast
up a small incline after a downhill, it is still should be
recorded. In reference to the gps reading, before I begun
using TopoUSA, I would save the track file as text, convert
it to Excel. I made a template that would strip the negative
elevation reading and total the positive reading. ( I had to
strip the "ft" after the elevation nunbers) The elevation I
got was very close to TopoUSA. I have a table of rides in
the Philadelphia, and several in other states.
http://www.billcotton.com/bicycle_ri...ing_system.htm
This page is an example of a route on the fly while
vacationing in Florida a couple of years ago. Several local
has use the route. http://www.billcotton.com/stpete.htm I
plotted a route from Philadelphia to St John VT for someone
that asked on this list, The person reported that they
picked the route up in New Jersey and followed it all the
way. I have used it to the northern part of New Jersey
myself. I when back to try to lessen the climbs in northern
New Jersey resulting in a longer route.

"GaryG" <garyg@shasta_SPAMBEGONE_software.com> wrote in message news:<10668so13t2v378@corp.supernews.com>...

> Thanks for the info. I use Topo USA 4.0, but wish it had a
> better user interface...it is very kludgy, and recently
> the "Search" feature has stopped working on my system.
>
> Have you compared the "Climbing Elevation" reported by
> Topo USA to what your GPS shows? In my experience, Topo
> USA overstates climbing elevation by 10-30%, depending on
> the route. I base this on comparisons with two different
> recording altimeters (an Avocet Vertech watch, and a Vetta
> V100A cycle computer). In my comparisons, the Delorme
> software always reported the highest amount of climbing
> elevation, followed by the Vetta and the Avocet. I suspect
> the Avocet is on the low side, because of it's 10 meter
> trigger point for elevation gain (the Vetta's trigger
> seems to be 1 meter).

My experience, on well known routes, is that TopoUSA
overestimates by 10-60%. It is a fundamental flaw in the way
it calculates; basically it is vector oriented and the
vectors it uses are way to long to get accurate results, esp
in hilly terrain with winding roads. This has been discussed
ad nauseum in multiple forums over the past few years.
DeLorme refuses to discuss and/or fix. BTW, I have just
started using a GPS with a barometric altimeter and it is
close to the known, actual elevation gain on the couple of
known routes I have tried it on.

- rick

"Rick Warner" <rickwarner@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:bc2b2f85.0403251630.3d1dff1c@posting.google.com...
> "GaryG" <garyg@shasta_SPAMBEGONE_software.com> wrote
> in message
news:<10668so13t2v378@corp.supernews.com>...
>
> > Thanks for the info. I use Topo USA 4.0, but wish it had
> > a better user interface...it is very kludgy, and
> > recently the "Search" feature has
stopped
> > working on my system.
> >
> > Have you compared the "Climbing Elevation" reported by
> > Topo USA to what
your
> > GPS shows? In my experience, Topo USA overstates
> > climbing elevation by 10-30%, depending on the route. I
> > base this on comparisons with two different recording
> > altimeters (an Avocet Vertech watch, and a Vetta
V100A
> > cycle computer). In my comparisons, the Delorme software
> > always
reported
> > the highest amount of climbing elevation, followed by
> > the Vetta and the Avocet. I suspect the Avocet is on the
> > low side, because of it's 10
meter
> > trigger point for elevation gain (the Vetta's trigger
> > seems to be 1
meter).
>
> My experience, on well known routes, is that TopoUSA
> overestimates by
10-60%.
> It is a fundamental flaw in the way it calculates;
> basically it is vector oriented and the vectors it uses
> are way to long to get accurate results, esp in hilly
> terrain with winding roads. This has been discussed ad
nauseum
> in multiple forums over the past few years. DeLorme
> refuses to discuss
and/or
> fix. BTW, I have just started using a GPS with a
> barometric altimeter and it is close to the known,
> actual elevation gain on the couple of known routes I
> have tried it on.
>
> - rick

re: "DeLorme refuses to discuss and/or fix"

That is certainly true. I was an early adopter of version
4.0, and alerted them to several bugs which were eventually
resolved. But, since they came out with the initial patch
for version 4.0, in December of 2002, there have been no
further updates to the product, and they have not
acknowledged any of my emails regarding the Climbing
Elevation issue.

DeLorme will be releasing version 5.0 later this month, but
the list of new features makes no mention of the Climbing
Elevation issue. Hopefully, the new version will at least
show some improvements in the user interface (which, in
version 4.0 was pretty awful).

--
~_-* ...G/ \G http://www.CycliStats.com CycliStats -
Software for Cyclists

"Rick Warner" <rickwarner@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:bc2b2f85.0403251630.3d1dff1c@posting.google.com...
> "GaryG" <garyg@shasta_SPAMBEGONE_software.com> wrote
> in message
news:<10668so13t2v378@corp.supernews.com>...
>
> > Thanks for the info. I use Topo USA 4.0, but wish it had
> > a better user interface...it is very kludgy, and
> > recently the "Search" feature has
stopped
> > working on my system.
> >
> > Have you compared the "Climbing Elevation" reported by
> > Topo USA to what
your
> > GPS shows? In my experience, Topo USA overstates
> > climbing elevation by 10-30%, depending on the route. I
> > base this on comparisons with two different recording
> > altimeters (an Avocet Vertech watch, and a Vetta
V100A
> > cycle computer). In my comparisons, the Delorme software
> > always
reported
> > the highest amount of climbing elevation, followed by
> > the Vetta and the Avocet. I suspect the Avocet is on the
> > low side, because of it's 10
meter
> > trigger point for elevation gain (the Vetta's trigger
> > seems to be 1
meter).
>
> My experience, on well known routes, is that TopoUSA
> overestimates by
10-60%.
> It is a fundamental flaw in the way it calculates;
> basically it is vector oriented and the vectors it uses
> are way to long to get accurate results, esp in hilly
> terrain with winding roads. This has been discussed ad
nauseum
> in multiple forums over the past few years. DeLorme
> refuses to discuss
and/or
> fix. BTW, I have just started using a GPS with a
> barometric altimeter and it is close to the known,
> actual elevation gain on the couple of known routes I
> have tried it on.
>
> - rick
Which GPS are you using now, the 60cs? I am considering up
it as a upgrade. I plan to wait until the G-V is upgraded
and see if it has the increase memory and the bicycle
features of the 60c/s. I am aware of the discussions and
since I haven't experience conditions of hilly winding roads
I am content with the results that I have gotten. I
understand that some GPS allow you to change the sampling
rate. I think that the 60c/s has that feature. If the gps is
reading every 5 seconds and you are going up on each
reading, you reading will be higher that reality. When the
tracks are captured in Excel, it show the time and
coordinates of each reading. Retracing the route may shed
light on your reading.

"Bill Cotton" <Billcotton@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<h76dna-aefY5k_ndRVn-vw@comcast.com>...

> Which GPS are you using now, the 60cs? I am considering up
> it as a upgrade.

Naww, just the Vista. Was going to get the 60CS, but it is
too big. On paper it did not sound too big, but once I had
one in hand, and mounted on the bike, the size was an issue.
Too many things competing for space, and cannot give up that
much more at the moment.

> I am aware of the discussions and since I haven't
> experience conditions of hilly winding roads I am content
> with the results that I have gotten.

Well, hilly and windy is 80-90% of what I ride. So .... big
issue for me and DeLorme does not respond.

> I understand that some GPS allow you to change the
> sampling rate. I think that the 60c/s has that feature. If
> the gps is reading every 5 seconds and you are going up on
> each reading, you reading will be higher that reality.

Hmmm, not necessarily. If the sampling rate is so coarse
that it does not accurately sample the various types of
changes there can be sampling error; but it can be high or
low, depending on whether increases or decreases are
underrepresented in the sample. Even though I am relatively
fast as a climber (for a >50 year old guy riding heavy steel
bikes) I doubt that I can get any significant sampling error
on an altimeter on a climb. But, I can get sampling error as
I bomb down the hills ;-) Great fun looking at how wildly
off a track log can be when you have a long period between
samples and descend a hill at 30-50MPH; looks like I am
cutting off switchbacks :-) I try to keep a fairly short
period between samples.

- rick