radial wheel trueing??

does the wheelsmith approach trueing a radially lumpy rim but laterally acceptable rim in a
different mannner than the inverse?

datakoll<< does the wheelsmith approach trueing a radially lumpy rim but laterally acceptable rim in
a different mannner than the inverse?

????

Get the rim round before it is at full tension.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

"g.daniels" <datakoll@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:41b0dda1.0304080807.49506ddc@posting.google.com...
> does the wheelsmith approach trueing a radially lumpy rim but laterally acceptable rim in a
> different mannner than the inverse?

From their site at URL http://www.wheelsmith.com/page4.html

"Wheelsmith's wheelbuilding philosophy emphasizes strength and durability, and the key is high,
uniform spoke tension. Spoke tension is the most difficult and elusive aspect of wheelbuilding. It
is the characteristic of the wheel most difficult to evaluate, yet the most critical to its
performance. This approach to wheelbuilding, based on combining both art and science, and focusing
on tension rather than cosmetic trueness, was pioneered by Wheelsmith and remains at the
foundation of our process. Cosmetic trueness can actually come at the expense of a wheel's
strength because it can result in unbalanced tension. So do not be misled by some builders' claims
about trueness, because what really matters is not how true a wheel is now, but how true it is
1,000 miles from now."

Tension is a very important element in wheel durability. I can speak for my experience and what I
have learned from reading more experienced and those that approach from an engineering base ("the
Bicycle Wheel" by Jobst Brandt). Most new rims will allow you to get high and even tension while
maintaining lateral and acceptable radial true. Most experienced wheel builders will adjust for the
best tension balance and lateral true, while using radial to make up for the irregularities in the
rim. The builder's tolerance for imperfections in radial true is usually under 0.5 mm from "peak" to
"valley". David Ornee, Western Springs, IL

"g.daniels" <datakoll@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:41b0dda1.0304080807.49506ddc@posting.google.com...
> does the wheelsmith approach trueing a radially lumpy rim but laterally acceptable rim in a
> different mannner than the inverse?

No! Cocker Spaniel dumpling favourable windy chicken wings and therefore never.

David Ornee <dornee@sbcglobal.net> writes:

>> does the Wheelsmith approach truing a radially lumpy rim but laterally acceptable rim in a
>> different manner than the inverse?

> From their site at URL http://www.wheelsmith.com/page4.html

> "Wheelsmith's wheelbuilding philosophy emphasizes strength and durability, and the key is high,
> uniform spoke tension. Spoke tension is the most difficult and elusive aspect of wheelbuilding. It
> is the characteristic of the wheel most difficult to evaluate, yet the most critical to its
> performance. This approach to wheelbuilding, based on combining both art and science, and focusing
> on tension rather than cosmetic trueness, was pioneered by Wheelsmith and remains at the
> foundation of our process. Cosmetic trueness can actually come at the expense of a wheel's
> strength because it can result in unbalanced tension. So do not be misled by some builders' claims
> about trueness, because what really matters is not how true a wheel is now, but how true it is
> 1,000 miles from now."

> Tension is a very important element in wheel durability. I can speak for my experience and what I
> have learned from reading more experienced and those that approach from an engineering base ("the
> Bicycle Wheel" by Jobst Brandt). Most new rims will allow you to get high and even tension while
> maintaining lateral and acceptable radial true. Most experienced wheel builders will adjust for
> the best tension balance and lateral true, while using radial to make up for the irregularities in
> the rim. The builder's tolerance for imperfections in radial true is usually under 0.5 mm from
> "peak" to "valley".

That's all nice to hear but there is a fly in the ointment. A wheel that is true and does not have
uniform tension is a loose wheel. As most wheel builders know, when the spokes get up to proper
tension, THEY determine how true the wheel is, not the rim, that otherwise covers for tension
disparities. Wheels are often built too loosely to not disturb the original trueness of the rim. If
the tensioned wheel is fairly true, yet does not have uniformly tensioned spokes, the spokes are
too loose.

Jobst Brandt jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org Palo Alto CA

> "g.daniels" <datakoll@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:41b0dda1.0304080807.49506ddc@posting.google.com...
> > does the wheelsmith approach trueing a radially lumpy rim but laterally acceptable rim in a
> > different mannner than the inverse?

"Gearóid Ó Laoi, Garry Lee" <begonefoulspam_glee@iol.ie> wrote in message
news:b6v161$1a0$1@kermit.esat.net...
> No! Cocker Spaniel dumpling favourable windy chicken wings and therefore never.

Did you compose that yourself or did you use the "g.daniels Berlitz" phrasebook?

--
Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971

ok-the approach are small adjustments at low torques as with the lateral approach. when does the
radial tune occur in relation to the lateral, as in sequence. visualize the lateral and radial angle
out of whack and then pulling those angles straight or true for the design, like s.brown's
diagrams.then where's the sequence technique in that visualization? how does the wheel moron get the
most effective procedure??? the articulation or technical writing description for the well handed
mechanic may involve blowing a few brain cells? but it's in there. por favor. my skill, hahaha, at
radial truing does not understand JB's even torqueness. that's way beyond what i arrive at when the
wheel is true/durable. the ^%^&*^% problem is too much time is consumed.

"g.daniels" <datakoll@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:41b0dda1.0304090748.294cb057@posting.google.com...
> ok-the approach are small adjustments at low torques as with the lateral approach. when does the
> radial tune occur in relation to the lateral, as in sequence. visualize the lateral and radial
> angle out of whack and then pulling those angles straight or true for the design, like s.brown's
> diagrams.then where's the sequence technique in that visualization? how does the wheel moron get
> the most effective procedure??? the articulation or technical writing description for the well
> handed mechanic may involve blowing a few brain cells? but it's in there. por favor. my skill,
> hahaha, at radial truing does not understand JB's even torqueness. that's way beyond what i arrive
> at when the wheel is true/durable. the ^%^&*^% problem is too much time is consumed.

Honestly, I spend very little time on radial trueness. I tension all spokes evenly to the desired
tension level, stress-relieve and check trueness. Generally, at this point, the wheel is not
laterally true but has a nice slow wobble that is easy to true out with minimal adjustment. I true
laterally and check for radial once this is done. Generally I don't have many issues with radial
trueness with the exception of the wheel seam. I do radial true after the lateral but always pay
attention to the spoke tension in the wheel as you true! You don't want to loosen too much or you
will have too little tension and a weak wheel. Generally, if you have to compromise trueness for
tension, better to compromise on radial trueness as it's less noticeable.

Good Luck,

Scott..

<jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message news:6CEka.3941$JX2.305469@typhoon.sonic.net...
> David Ornee <dornee@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>
> >> does the Wheelsmith approach truing a radially lumpy rim but laterally acceptable rim in a
> >> different manner than the inverse?
>
> > From their site at URL http://www.wheelsmith.com/page4.html
>
> > "Wheelsmith's wheelbuilding philosophy emphasizes strength and durability, and the key is high,
> > uniform spoke tension. Spoke tension is the most difficult and elusive aspect of wheelbuilding.
> > It is the characteristic of the wheel most difficult to evaluate, yet the most critical to its
> > performance. This approach to wheelbuilding, based on combining both art and science, and
> > focusing on tension rather than cosmetic trueness, was pioneered by Wheelsmith and remains at
> > the foundation of our process. Cosmetic trueness can actually come at the expense of a wheel's
> > strength because it can result in unbalanced tension. So do not be misled by some builders'
> > claims about trueness, because what really matters is not how true a wheel is now, but how true
> > it is 1,000 miles from now."
>
> > Tension is a very important element in wheel durability. I can speak for my experience and what
> > I have learned from reading more experienced and those that approach from an engineering base
> > ("the Bicycle Wheel" by Jobst Brandt). Most new rims will allow you to get high and even tension
> > while maintaining lateral and acceptable radial true. Most experienced wheel builders will
> > adjust for the best tension balance and lateral true, while using radial to make up for the
> > irregularities in the rim. The builder's tolerance for imperfections in radial true is usually
> > under 0.5 mm from "peak" to "valley".
>
> That's all nice to hear but there is a fly in the ointment. A wheel that is true and does not have
> uniform tension is a loose wheel. As most wheel builders know, when the spokes get up to proper
> tension, THEY determine how true the wheel is, not the rim, that otherwise covers for tension
> disparities. Wheels are often built too loosely to not disturb the original trueness of the rim.
> If the tensioned wheel is fairly true, yet does not have uniformly tensioned spokes, the spokes
> are too loose.
>
> Jobst Brandt jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org Palo Alto CA

Very interesting! I have limited experience of only building 250 wheels and working on 360 that
others have built. I always try to follow the methods described in the Jobst Brandt book: "the
Bicycle Wheel". However, I have thrown out 5 or 6 rims because I was not able to get the spokes at
uniform high tension and have the wheel true. I thought it was the rim's fault. I assumed there was
some damage or weakness in the rim when I couldn't get uniform high tension and true at the same
time. I tension for minimum of 100 kgf on spokes of the front wheel. I have used 170 kgf on Mavic
D521 and T520 front spokes. Both these examples built very true and within 5% of tension balance.
David Ornee, Western Springs, IL

David Ornee writes:

> Very interesting!

> I have limited experience of only building 250 wheels and working on 360 that others have built. I
> always try to follow the methods described in the Jobst Brandt book: "the Bicycle Wheel".

> However, I have thrown out 5 or 6 rims because I was not able to get the spokes at uniform high
> tension and have the wheel true. I thought it was the rim's fault. I assumed there was some damage
> or weakness in the rim when I couldn't get uniform high tension and true at the same time.

Not all rims are originally true and some become wobbly during initial tightening if too much
tension is added in a single pass. Such wheels need forceful straightening as is described in the
book you cite. If the final wheel is unevenly tensioned yet true, some of this "straightening needs
to be undertaken to get the wheel to uniform tension, or its alignment will drift that way with use.

> I tension for minimum of 100 kgf on spokes of the front wheel. I have used 170 kgf on Mavic D521
> and T520 front spokes. Both these examples built very true and within 5% of tension balance.

Well, that depends on the rim and number of spokes, so I can't make any blanket statement on how
tight spokes need to be. I'm sure you must have seen that in the book.

Jobst Brandt jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org Palo Alto CA

<jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message news:NH3la.4282$JX2.320143@typhoon.sonic.net...
> David Ornee writes:
>
> > Very interesting!
>
> > I have limited experience of only building 250 wheels and working on 360 that others have built.
> > I always try to follow the methods described in the Jobst Brandt book: "the Bicycle Wheel".
>
> > However, I have thrown out 5 or 6 rims because I was not able to get the spokes at uniform
> > high tension and have the wheel true. I thought it was the rim's fault. I assumed there was
> > some damage or weakness in the rim when I couldn't get uniform high tension and true at the
> > same time.
>
> Not all rims are originally true and some become wobbly during initial tightening if too much
> tension is added in a single pass. Such wheels need forceful straightening as is described in the
> book you cite. If the final wheel is unevenly tensioned yet true, some of this "straightening
> needs to be undertaken to get the wheel to uniform tension, or its alignment will drift that way
> with use.
>
> > I tension for minimum of 100 kgf on spokes of the front wheel. I have used 170 kgf on Mavic D521
> > and T520 front spokes. Both these examples built very true and within 5% of tension balance.
>
> Well, that depends on the rim and number of spokes, so I can't make any blanket statement on how
> tight spokes need to be. I'm sure you must have seen that in the book.
>
> Jobst Brandt jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org Palo Alto CA

Yes, I read those sections of the book. I have tried forceful straightening. I don't try to add too
much tension in a single pass. The rims I gave up on were about 1% of the total samples I dealt
with. This 1% doesn't include ones where there were flaws that became apparent as I stress relieved
the wheels, like eyelets pulling out. It certainly could be that my implementations of the
techniques mentioned in "the book" were flawed. I hope I will learn more with continued efforts and
learning. However, I still think that there are rims that may be weak/flawed from the manufacturer
that despite best methods and procedures won't allow a true wheel with high even tension. I take no
issues with the material, methods, or procedures in "the book". I agree with them and use them
regularly. My point is that there seems to me to be a small percentage of rims that just won't true
when I think I am following all the methods and procedures in "the book". The rims I am speaking of
were current production from well respected manufacturers from France and Italy. I used the same
models from the same manufactures, with the same spokes, hubs, and procedures and had satisfactory
results. I wasn't attempting to make blanket statements about tension. I was just asserting the fact
that I don't build wheels with too low of tension.

David Ornee, Western Springs, IL

so the wheel in question suffered a statistical cluster phenomena with 3 broken spokes and ten
whizzed nipples giving pronounced kangaroo hop with, off course all three spares down for
reassembley. so, in keeping with current theory, i ignored the lateral and proceeded to adjust the
radial. i turn the bike upside down and work from the rear reaching over to the front betweennthe
pads or bolts therein but(a huge pain in the *&^&*&^%)but giving up on the lateral i sat beside the
pads and judged the lateral only as the rim being more or less centered between the pads andwith
nipples loose eyeballed(having lost the felt pen) the main rim depression and left those nipples
loose,tigthening 1/2 turn all other nipples with only a rough lateral adjustment-which is a good way
not to obsess laterally,don't look a it too closely.
1/2 turns about 5-6 rounds and the depressed area stiffened up enough to now loosen those nipples
and go around again 3-4 times tightening with 1/4 loosening turns at the depressed area. and
slight lateral adjustments to keep the wheel turning between pads. amazing how the wheel as a
torsional structure comes alive at this pint with some(but not all) nipples 'erking' towards
torque. then to the bikes rear and to laterally true. then back to the side checking radial
trueness again and for the final assault toward running torque with tighten beyond the
depression.loosen the depression(cawsed by a stiff wind gust blowing the bike into a nice amacite
one side, jagged concrete impact side,pothole the only pothole within 300 yards) tighten to
running torque ah**** several depression now appeared as torque approached giving the necessity to
micro adjust each new depression very carefully trying to avoid avoid avoid a bannana twist with
tightening on the rolloff points at depression's edge at six spoke intervals, careful to loosen
one tighten the next until half mad i ran screaming into the field... loosening the depressions. 3
hours.with nipple replacement ect.??? the depression loosened up this morning giving rise to some
thoughts on blue loctite around the depression next time if i don't hacksaw the little*&&^% before
then. is this congruent with current reality??

In article <41b0dda1.0304110806.6590a1d0@posting.google.com>, datakoll@yahoo.com (g.daniels) wrote:

> so the wheel in question suffered a statistical cluster phenomena with 3 broken spokes and ten
> whizzed nipples giving pronounced kangaroo hop with, off course all three spares down for
> reassembley.

> i turn the bike upside down and work from the rear reaching over to the front betweennthe pads or
> bolts therein but(a huge pain in the *&^&*&^%)but giving up on the lateral i sat beside the pads
> and judged the lateral only as the rim being more or less centered between the pads andwith
> nipples loose eyeballed(having lost the felt pen) the

> amazing how the wheel as a torsional structure comes alive at this pint with some(but not all)
> nipples 'erking' towards torque.

> depression.loosen the depression(cawsed by a stiff wind gust blowing the bike into a nice amacite
> one side, jagged concrete impact side,pothole the only pothole within 300 yards) tighten to
> running torque ah**** several depression now appeared as torque approached giving the necessity to
> micro adjust each new depression very carefully trying to avoid avoid avoid a bannana twist with
> tightening

> is this congruent with current reality??

no. not even close.

ok. radial wheel trueing a guild secret!!! ach du!!! i forgot an important step. ouch. after
twisting the unbent rim nipples to the point where the untwisted bent nipples gained enough torque
to allow the mech to consider riding on the rim and then untwisting the previously untwisted
depressed area nipples(amuzi heads to the field?-this is a korean translation-I could do it
backwards?) to give the rim a generally round character, the mech then marked the opposite side to
that bent area and looosened those nipples a 1/2 turn then a full turn giving the depressed
area-bent rim nipples/spokes yet more leeway to relax and unbend with out ever tightening them-just
allowing for the entire congruent torsion structure to head toward the max design area. the
untightening of the opposite side may be heresy? as unscrewing those nipple/spokes may give an
elliptical/eggshape-maybe giving the seemingly(actually more minor dents)random mutation to numerous
depressed areas rather than the Big One the mech started out to eliminate but unscrewing the
opposite side does get it on the road again.

datakoll@yahoo.com (g.daniels) wrote:

> ok. radial wheel trueing a guild secret!!! ach du!!! i forgot an important step. ouch. after
> twisting the unbent rim nipples to the point where the untwisted bent nipples gained enough torque
> to allow the mech to consider riding on the rim and then untwisting the previously untwisted
> depressed area nipples(amuzi heads to the field?-this is a korean translation-I could do it
> backwards?) to give the rim a generally round character, the mech then marked the opposite side to
> that bent area and looosened those nipples a 1/2 turn then a full turn giving the depressed
> area-bent rim nipples/spokes yet more leeway to relax and unbend with out ever tightening
> them-just allowing for the entire congruent torsion structure to head toward the max design area.
> the untightening of the opposite side may be heresy? as unscrewing those nipple/spokes may give an
> elliptical/eggshape-maybe giving the seemingly(actually more minor dents)random mutation to
> numerous depressed areas rather than the Big One the mech started out to eliminate but unscrewing
> the opposite side does get it on the road again.

I wonder if g.daniels has been huffing a lot of solvents?

Anyway, I sure would like to have some sort of translator.

--
Ted Bennett Portland OR