Wheel rebuild with shorter spokes?

Hi, I'm a first-time wheel builder. I went to the LBS yesterday to get a set of spokes, and spent 5
hours last night trying to get the wheel laced. No joy -- I am using the 4 rounds system, and can't
get any of the spokes from the fourth round to the rim. In frustration, after 3 attempts to lace the
wheel, I look at the old spokes. They seem to be maybe 5-10 mm longer than the new ones.

My question is: am I doing something wrong, and the shop sold me a usable set of spokes? Or did the
shop probably sell me spokes that were too short, and I should go back and exchange them?

Sorry if this sounds like a dumb question, but I am a total naif at this.

-- Dan

--
Dan Cosley (cosley@Never.Spam.cs.umn.edu * http://www.cs.umn.edu/~cosley/) GroupLens Research
Lab, Univ of MN (http://movielens.umn.edu/ * 612.624.8372) *** Just a foot soldier in the Army
of Truth ***

Dan Cosley writes:

> Hi, I'm a first-time wheel builder. I went to the LBS yesterday to get a set of spokes, and spent
> 5 hours last night trying to get the wheel laced. No joy -- I am using the 4 rounds system, and
> can't get any of the spokes from the fourth round to the rim. In frustration, after 3 attempts to
> lace the wheel, I look at the old spokes. They seem to be maybe 5-10 mm longer than the new ones.

You should have gotten the exact same length you had before.

> My question is: am I doing something wrong, and the shop sold me a usable set of spokes? Or did
> the shop probably sell me spokes that were too short, and I should go back and exchange them?

They probably assumed a different cross pattern, assuming they knew anything about it.

> Sorry if this sounds like a dumb question, but I am a total naif at this.

Go back to them and ask what they had in mind.

Jobst Brandt jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org Palo Alto CA

In article <Q_4Aa.16794$JX2.1039503@typhoon.sonic.net>, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>Dan Cosley writes:
>
>> My question is: am I doing something wrong, and the shop sold me a usable set of spokes? Or did
>> the shop probably sell me spokes that were too short, and I should go back and exchange them?
>
>They probably assumed a different cross pattern, assuming they knew anything about it.

Turns out the LBS guy just measured wrong.

>> Sorry if this sounds like a dumb question, but I am a total naif at this.
>
>Go back to them and ask what they had in mind.

He just said that it was easier to measure the spokes once they were off the wheel (I wish he'd have
taken off spokes the first trip to measure) and they traded them in for a new set of an appropriate
length. I'm mildly annoyed since I spent a lot of time trying last night (they said it'd take hours
the first time, soo...) and had to make the extra trip, but I do now have a functional wheel.

Thanks for the reply.

-- Dan

--
Dan Cosley (cosley@Never.Spam.cs.umn.edu * http://www.cs.umn.edu/~cosley/) GroupLens Research
Lab, Univ of MN (http://movielens.umn.edu/ * 612.624.8372) *** Just a foot soldier in the Army
of Truth ***

"Dan Cosley" <cosley@cs.umn.edu> wrote in message news:slrnbd2i4b.1gm.cosley@hugo.cs.umn.edu...
> In article <Q_4Aa.16794$JX2.1039503@typhoon.sonic.net>,
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> >Dan Cosley writes:
> >
> >> My question is: am I doing something wrong, and the shop sold me a usable set of spokes? Or did
> >> the shop probably sell me spokes that were too short, and I should go back and exchange them?
> >
> >They probably assumed a different cross pattern, assuming they knew anything about it.
>
> Turns out the LBS guy just measured wrong.
>
> >> Sorry if this sounds like a dumb question, but I am a total naif at this.
> >
> >Go back to them and ask what they had in mind.
>
> He just said that it was easier to measure the spokes once they were off the wheel (I wish he'd
> have taken off spokes the first trip to measure) and they traded them in for a new set of an
> appropriate length. I'm mildly annoyed since I spent a lot of time trying last night (they said
> it'd take hours the first time, soo...) and had to make the extra trip, but I do now have a
> functional wheel.
>
> Thanks for the reply.
>
> -- Dan

The next one will get easier, then the one after that even easier, and so on...

Keep it up!

Mike

In article <q7dAa.47295$eJ2.9482@fed1read07>, Mike S. wrote:
>
>The next one will get easier, then the one after that even easier, and so on...

Let's hope. At least next time, I'll know about the correct spoke length (and also to check the
obvious -- I had a bad case of "expert reverence", which should be easier to avoid in the future.

>Keep it up!

Too poor not to.

-- Dan

--
Dan Cosley (cosley@Never.Spam.cs.umn.edu * http://www.cs.umn.edu/~cosley/) GroupLens Research
Lab, Univ of MN (http://movielens.umn.edu/ * 612.624.8372) *** Just a foot soldier in the Army
of Truth ***

cosley@cs.umn.edu (Dan Cosley) wrote in message
>
> Too poor not to.

huh?

i find that buying wheelsets is cheaper than buying the parts for them, hands-down. it would be
cheaper, if you wanted to do your own wheels, to buy the cheapo mail-order wheelset, break it down,
and build it up again! (pro-built wheels with an expert's reputation on the line cost more,
obviously, a la sheldon, vecchio, et al)

then again, if you are just replacing a rim, and can reuse the hubs, spokes, etc, then yes. much
much cheaper (save labor $, and just buy a rim instead of a whole wheel)

cheap wheel parts.. siiiigh. one day....

In article <61806f59.0305252128.5706b500@posting.google.com>, ant wrote:
>cosley@cs.umn.edu (Dan Cosley) wrote in message
>>
>> Too poor not to.
>
>huh?
>
>i find that buying wheelsets is cheaper than buying the parts for them, hands-down...
>
>then again, if you are just replacing a rim, and can reuse the hubs, spokes, etc, then yes. much
>much cheaper (save labor $, and just buy a rim instead of a whole wheel)

I was just replacing the spokes this time; the hub and rim were fine, but I'd been having persistent
spoke breakage. It was about $18 at the LBS. I toyed with the idea of a new wheel, but couldn't
quite justify it (especially since I'd have been tempted to convert from freewheel to freehub -- it
turned out I had a broken axle, too -- and so I'd have needed to add on a cassette).

-- Dan

--
Dan Cosley (cosley@Never.Spam.cs.umn.edu * http://www.cs.umn.edu/~cosley/) GroupLens Research
Lab, Univ of MN (http://movielens.umn.edu/ * 612.624.8372) *** Just a foot soldier in the Army
of Truth ***

"ant" <anthony.anagnostou@yale.edu> wrote in message
news:61806f59.0305252128.5706b500@posting.google.com...

>, if you wanted to do your own wheels, to buy the cheapo mail-order wheelset, break it down, and
>build it up again!

No need to "break it down", factory-built wheels are always under-tensioned, just increase the
tension, stress relieve, and true.

Peter Cole <petercole@nospamatallattbi.com> writes:

>> If you wanted to do your own wheels, to buy the cheapo mail-order wheelset, break it down, and
>> build it up again!

> No need to "break it down", factory-built wheels are always under-tensioned, just increase the
> tension, stress relieve, and true.

Of course... but

There is a belief that a machine built wheel has bad karma and that it can only be removed by
un-spoking the wheel. People believe almost anything if you say it right.

Jobst Brandt jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org Palo Alto CA

> "ant" <anthony.anagnostou@yale.edu> wrote in message

> >, if you wanted to do your own wheels, to buy the cheapo mail-order wheelset, break it down, and
> >build it up again!

"Peter Cole" <petercole@nospamatallattbi.com> wrote in message

> No need to "break it down", factory-built wheels are always under-tensioned, just increase the
> tension, stress relieve, and true.

right. i was not talking in terms of effiency, but in terms of gaining experience. at this stage in
my bike work career, im often more interested in the latter than the former. i know there are others
out there in the same boat.

cheers