opinions on integrated headsets?

Hi, I was wondering what you guys think of integrated headsets and their durability? I had read
something from the folks at Chris King, who I presume know a thing or two about headsets, which
really damned integrated headsets as flawed and claimed they would eventually destroy the frame. Now
I'm asking this because I just received a frame (from Leader) which I *thought* used an aheadset
type headset, but in *fact* uses--you guessed it, an integrated headset. Should I return/sell this
frame and get a new one--is it as dire as Chris King makes it out to be? Or have people had good,
long-term relationships with their integrated headsets? If it's not so bad, does it matter which
integrated headset I get? (Help!) Thanks! Vincent.

vincent chiao wrote:
>
> Hi, I was wondering what you guys think of integrated headsets and their durability? I had read
> something from the folks at Chris King, who I presume know a thing or two about headsets, which
> really damned integrated headsets as flawed and claimed they would eventually destroy the frame.
> Now I'm asking this because I just received a frame (from Leader) which I *thought* used an
> aheadset type headset, but in *fact* uses--you guessed it, an integrated headset. Should I
> return/sell this frame and get a new one--is it as dire as Chris King makes it out to be? Or have
> people had good, long-term relationships with their integrated headsets? If it's not so bad, does
> it matter which integrated headset I get? (Help!) Thanks! Vincent.

Integrated Headsets...

Just Say NO!

Many of my mechanic freinds have rue'ed the day these things came out on the market. The only
benefit is to the manufacturers. One member of my club has gone through 3 in 6 months this year.
Granted, I live in a wetter than usual climate (Oregon) but 3 headsets is beyond belief.

Joe
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Joe -

I think you may have something with the IHS interpretation of the JDI. Our version seems
remarkably sound.

"Joseph Cipale" <joec@aracnet.com> a écrit dans news:3EEDFAD2.4ED2F3AC@aracnet.com...
> vincent chiao wrote:

> Integrated Headsets...
>
> Just Say NO!
>
> Many of my mechanic freinds have rue'ed the day these things came out on the market. The only
> benefit is to the manufacturers. One member of my club has gone through 3 in 6 months this year.
> Granted, I live in a wetter than usual climate (Oregon) but 3 headsets is beyond belief.
>
> Joe

I can sympathise - I, too, have occasional problems with english.

Even the Chris King site makes a distinction between "integrated" headsets and "internal" headsets, which are essentially cartridge bearings bonded to the head and steer tubes. CK's Perdido model acknowledges that "you can have a sexy-looking, low profile headset that won't turn into a headache." I think my internal headset looks cool but if I ever have to replace it I'm sure I'll be swearing at it, but as CK also says "a properly designed headset should last the life of the frame.", that's what I'm banking on. Had to replace a Campy headset once on my old crit bike (it was Brinelled) but then I transferred that second headset (also Campy threaded type) to a new frame a few years later and have been riding it without problems for another 10 years.

I suggest keeping your frame, it's got the same type of headset attachment as a hundred other high-end framesets.

"vincent chiao" <v-chiao@northwestern.edu> wrote in message news:<bcks6k$i17$1@news.acns.nwu.edu>...

> Or have people had good, long-term relationships with their integrated headsets? If it's not so
> bad, does it matter which integrated headset I get? (Help!) Thanks! Vincent.

Long-term on something that is relatively recent? Reminds me of the job descriptions I see where
they ask for minimum 5 years experience with something that has been around 3-4 years. Basic
message, no one has what I would call long-term experience with the beasts. Everything folks are
saying is based on short term experience or analysis from and engineering standpoint. So you
will have to decide how comfortable you are adopting something that a lot of good engineers
claim is flawed.

My own opinion is that this is a move good for the manufacturers in a couple of ways; one is it
exposes frames to another source of damage that could require frame replacement. Ka-ching! Ka-ching!
I like the idea of frames and parts that will last decades, and I have little confidence that a
frame with integrated headset will last that long. My custom lugged frame, Phil Wood BB, Phil Wood
hubs, CK headset, Campy Racing Triple fder, TA Zephyr crankset .... those should last, and last, and
last. I was ready to buy a high-end, name brand bike last when they switched to integrated
H/S: I wrote them and told them they had just lost a sale and why. Their only response was to put
me on their 'preferred customer mailing list'.

- rick warner

On Mon, 16 Jun 2003 10:13:54 +0000, Joseph Cipale wrote:

> Integrated Headsets...
>
> Just Say NO!

Agreed
>
> Many of my mechanic freinds have rue'ed the day these things came out on the market. The only
> benefit is to the manufacturers. One member of my club has gone through 3 in 6 months this year.
> Granted, I live in a wetter than usual climate (Oregon) but 3 headsets is beyond belief.

There could be some sort of rash of bad headsets, or poor installation, in this case. But the real
problem is not replacing it this year, but replacing it 5 years from now when it has worn out, when
the company has gone belly-up, and when the new standard is 1.5" so nothing is available that fits.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | And what if you track down these men and kill them, what if you _`\(,_ | killed all of us?
From every corner of Europe, hundreds, (_)/ (_) | thousands would rise up to take our places.
Even Nazis can't kill that fast. -- Paul Henreid (Casablanca).

Agreed. The purpose of integrated headsets is design obselesence, just like tailfins on a '59 Caddy
(and they probably do as much good), and is also another excuse for the bike racers not to talk to
you! Colnago is right: "if it ain't broken, don't fix it". "Rick Warner" <rickwarner@earthlink.net>
wrote in message news:bc2b2f85.0306161446.675a0721@posting.google.com...
> "vincent chiao" <v-chiao@northwestern.edu> wrote in message
news:<bcks6k$i17$1@news.acns.nwu.edu>...
>
> > Or have people had good, long-term relationships with their integrated headsets? If it's not so
> > bad, does
it
> > matter which integrated headset I get? (Help!) Thanks! Vincent.
>
> Long-term on something that is relatively recent? Reminds me of the job descriptions I see where
> they ask for minimum 5 years experience with something that has been around 3-4 years. Basic
> message, no one has what I would call long-term experience with the beasts. Everything folks are
> saying is based on short term experience or analysis from and
engineering
> standpoint. So you will have to decide how comfortable you are adopting something that a lot of
> good engineers claim is flawed.
>
> My own opinion is that this is a move good for the manufacturers in a
couple
> of ways; one is it exposes frames to another source of damage that could require frame
> replacement. Ka-ching! Ka-ching! I like the idea of frames and parts that will last decades, and I
> have little confidence that a frame with integrated headset will last that long. My custom lugged
> frame, Phil Wood BB, Phil Wood hubs, CK headset, Campy Racing Triple fder, TA Zephyr crankset ....
> those should last, and last, and last. I was ready to buy a high-end, name brand bike last when
> they switched to
integrated
> H/S: I wrote them and told them they had just lost a sale and why. Their only response was to put
> me on their 'preferred customer mailing
list'.
>
> - rick warner

My extended character set doesn't allow me to show projectile vomiting.

--
Robin Hubert <cv2572@earthlink.net

> > "vincent chiao" <v-chiao@northwestern.edu> wrote in message
> news:<bcks6k$i17$1@news.acns.nwu.edu>...
> > > Or have people had good, long-term relationships with their integrated headsets? If it's not
> > > so bad, does
> it
> > > matter which integrated headset I get? (Help!) Thanks! Vincent.

> "Rick Warner" <rickwarner@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:bc2b2f85.0306161446.675a0721@posting.google.com...
> > Long-term on something that is relatively recent? Reminds me of the job descriptions I see where
> > they ask for minimum 5 years experience with something that has been around 3-4 years. Basic
> > message, no one has what I would call long-term experience with the beasts. Everything
folks
> > are saying is based on short term experience or analysis from and
> engineering
> > standpoint. So you will have to decide how comfortable you are
adopting
> > something that a lot of good engineers claim is flawed.
> >
> > My own opinion is that this is a move good for the manufacturers in a
> couple
> > of ways; one is it exposes frames to another source of damage that could require frame
> > replacement. Ka-ching! Ka-ching! I like the idea of frames and parts that will last decades, and
> > I have little confidence
that
> > a frame with integrated headset will last that long. My custom lugged frame, Phil Wood BB, Phil
> > Wood hubs, CK headset, Campy Racing Triple
fder,
> > TA Zephyr crankset .... those should last, and last, and last. I was ready to buy a high-end,
> > name brand bike last when they switched to
> integrated
> > H/S: I wrote them and told them they had just lost a sale and why. Their only response was to
> > put me on their 'preferred customer mailing
> list'.

<TNEWSOME1@woh.rr.com> wrote in message news:3GuHa.190691$VP.43399578@twister.neo.rr.com...
> Agreed. The purpose of integrated headsets is design obselesence, just
like
> tailfins on a '59 Caddy (and they probably do as much good), and is also another excuse for the
> bike racers not to talk to you! Colnago is right:
"if
> it ain't broken, don't fix it".

Ernesto "Twin Seat Tubes" Colnago said that?

--
Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971

A Muzi wrote:
>>>"vincent chiao" <v-chiao@northwestern.edu> wrote in message
>>
>>news:<bcks6k$i17$1@news.acns.nwu.edu>...
>>
>>>>Or have people had good, long-term relationships with their integrated headsets? If it's not so
>>>>bad, does
>>>
>>it
>>
>>>>matter which integrated headset I get? (Help!) Thanks! Vincent.
>>>
>
>>"Rick Warner" <rickwarner@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>news:bc2b2f85.0306161446.675a0721@posting.google.com...
>>
>>>Long-term on something that is relatively recent? Reminds me of the job descriptions I see where
>>>they ask for minimum 5 years experience with something that has been around 3-4 years. Basic
>>>message, no one has what I would call long-term experience with the beasts. Everything
>>
> folks
>
>>>are saying is based on short term experience or analysis from and
>>
>>engineering
>>
>>>standpoint. So you will have to decide how comfortable you are
>>
> adopting
>
>>>something that a lot of good engineers claim is flawed.
>>>
>>>My own opinion is that this is a move good for the manufacturers in a
>>
>>couple
>>
>>>of ways; one is it exposes frames to another source of damage that could require frame
>>>replacement. Ka-ching! Ka-ching! I like the idea of frames and parts that will last decades, and
>>>I have little confidence
>>
> that
>
>>>a frame with integrated headset will last that long. My custom lugged frame, Phil Wood BB, Phil
>>>Wood hubs, CK headset, Campy Racing Triple
>>
> fder,
>
>>>TA Zephyr crankset .... those should last, and last, and last. I was ready to buy a high-end,
>>>name brand bike last when they switched to
>>
>>integrated
>>
>>>H/S: I wrote them and told them they had just lost a sale and why. Their only response was to
>>> put me on their 'preferred customer mailing
>>
>>list'.
>
>
> <TNEWSOME1@woh.rr.com> wrote in message news:3GuHa.190691$VP.43399578@twister.neo.rr.com...
>
>>Agreed. The purpose of integrated headsets is design obselesence, just
>
> like
>
>>tailfins on a '59 Caddy (and they probably do as much good), and is also another excuse for the
>>bike racers not to talk to you! Colnago is right:
>
> "if
>
>>it ain't broken, don't fix it".
>
>
>
> Ernesto "Twin Seat Tubes" Colnago said that?

I remember when Colnago played with twin downtubes; did he also toy with twin seat tubes? Didn't
Gios once push the twin seat tube idea?

Mark McMaster MMcMstr@ix.netcom.com

vincent asked-<< Hi, I was wondering what you guys think of integrated headsets and their
durability? >><BR><BR>

Just saw a Cramerotti with an ovalized headtube with a integrated HS.

Think it's an answer to a not asked question BUT aluminum and ti frame builders like it as the 1 1/8
inch headtube, if integrated, is the biggest there is. 'Rounder' miters, easier to weld.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

On Tue, 17 Jun 2003 02:03:43 GMT, <TNEWSOME1@woh.rr.com> wrote:

>Agreed. The purpose of integrated headsets is design obselesence, just like tailfins on a '59 Caddy
>(and they probably do as much good),

Hey, those tailfins look damn good.

Jasper

Robin Hubert at cv2572@earthlink.net wrote on 6/16/03 10:12 PM:

> My extended character set doesn't allow me to show projectile vomiting.
>

easy....

%^0 ---===###@

I don't know if Ernesto ever said that, he certainly wasn't the first to say that.
First straight-blade forks I ever saw were also on a Colnago.
I think the first carbon rear triangle I ever saw was on a Colnago (not a monostay).
FYI, plural of Colnago is Colnaghi.

@#!&%#%&*!!$^&!!

Sheldon "Brevity Is The Soul Of Wit" Brown +-----------------------------------------+
| When I cannot sing my heart, | I can only speak my mind... | --John Lennon |
+-----------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone
617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
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