I want to do some night riding - mostly on the road, and some trail riding. I'm new at this so I
need some advice.

For the road, it seems that the more light the better - to be seen - not necessarily for my own
visibility.

I see motorcyclists riding during the day time with their powerful lights on.

So the reasoning goes, fork over the bucks and get a HID light. Maybe even two (one for the
handlebars, one for the helmet).

So I'm thinking about getting just that, night rider blow torch and storm. Cost a lot, sure. But how
much is one's life and health worth?

Also, is that kind of a dream set up for trails?

Any thoughts?

Thanks, Thunder9

"Thunder9" <thunder9@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:3f272c80.303401308@netnews.comcast.net...
> I want to do some night riding - mostly on the road, and some trail riding. I'm new at this so I
> need some advice.
>
> For the road, it seems that the more light the better - to be seen - not necessarily for my own
> visibility.
>
> I see motorcyclists riding during the day time with their powerful lights on.
>
> So the reasoning goes, fork over the bucks and get a HID light. Maybe even two (one for the
> handlebars, one for the helmet).
>
> So I'm thinking about getting just that, night rider blow torch and storm. Cost a lot, sure. But
> how much is one's life and health worth?
>
> Also, is that kind of a dream set up for trails?
>
> Any thoughts?

Yes, that's some dream candlepower (for the road AND trails) -- just be careful not to blind any
motorists (seriously)!

I have a Blowtorch (handlebar) HID, and almost never use my 15W helmet light any more (just gets
washed out). Miss it for repairs and stuff, but usually there's someone else around to illuminate
things if needed. (A Storm would be nice, but prolly overkill for the money involved.)

Definitely get a red blinkie light for road riding, and some reflective clothing wouldn't
hurt, either.

Light Shedder Bill

Thunder9 wrote:

>I want to do some night riding - mostly on the road, and some trail riding. I'm new at this so I
>need some advice.
>
>For the road, it seems that the more light the better - to be seen - not necessarily for my own
>visibility.
>
>I see motorcyclists riding during the day time with their powerful lights on.
>
>So the reasoning goes, fork over the bucks and get a HID light. Maybe even two (one for the
>handlebars, one for the helmet).
>
>So I'm thinking about getting just that, night rider blow torch and storm. Cost a lot, sure. But
>how much is one's life and health worth?
>
>Also, is that kind of a dream set up for trails?
>
>Any thoughts?
>
>Thanks, Thunder9
>
>
>
On the road I would not go with the second helmet-mounted HID. These are extremely bright, and
helmet-mounting is going to result in aiming the thing right in peoples' eyes. A handlebar HID gives
you plenty of illumination. It's not a bad idea to have a backup light, and if you wanted to go
whole-hog then dual handlebar-mounted HIDs could fit the bill.

On a trail you need to understand how bright the light is and be prepared to shield oncomers from
the glare. I notice this especially since part of my route is via a multi-use trail which is very
dark and there is a contingent of "moonlight joggers" who are out there long before dawn. Their eyes
are completely dark-adapted and even though the ped and bike paths are separated, if I don't shield
the light I hear about it!

I use an HID for commuting and it has been worth the cost. As you note, being seen is as important
as being able to see. The HID does both. And while you can certainly SEE less powerful lights from
very far off that doesn't necessarily translate into recognition by drivers - just doesn't compete
with headlights, streetlamps, etc. I'm not talking about blinding motorists, but getting their
attention. I've never had anyone flash high-beams at me, but I think it finally gets a cyclist
into the realm of being noticed as "traffic". I noticed an immediate difference in how soon
drivers approaching on cross-streets react and act appropriately, even when there are parked cars
between us, etc.

Thanks. I'm researching night riding safety, and just stumbled upon a great quote:

"Ride like you're invisible"

BTW, where do you get the reflective clothing and tape? Is Illuminite any good?

Also, does anyone use sound blasting devices like horns?

Thanks, Thunder9

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 01:14:41 GMT, thunder9@nowhere.com (Thunder9) wrote:

>I want to do some night riding - mostly on the road, and some trail riding. I'm new at this so I
>need some advice.
>
>For the road, it seems that the more light the better - to be seen - not necessarily for my own
>visibility.
>
>I see motorcyclists riding during the day time with their powerful lights on.
>
>So the reasoning goes, fork over the bucks and get a HID light. Maybe even two (one for the
>handlebars, one for the helmet).
>
>So I'm thinking about getting just that, night rider blow torch and storm. Cost a lot, sure. But
>how much is one's life and health worth?
>
>Also, is that kind of a dream set up for trails?

I've found that one HID is plenty for the trails. Two would probably miss the whole point of night
riding. I used to use two non-HID lights, and with those, two worked well.

As far as the road goes, tail lights, blinkies, and reflectors on the rear and sides, sometimes I
even toss a set of Tire Flys on. Two HIDs on the road won't buy you much. A lamp with a longer throw
would be more useful. It is possible to outride an HID light on downhill roads, with potholes,
etc... reaching you faster than you can react.

Helmet mounted lights can easily blind motorists as you naturally look at them. I prefer a helmet
mounted HID on trails, and almost any bar mounted lamp on the road.

My favorite road lamp is my Niterider 12-E, with a tail light. This light has a good run time when
run at a medium setting with a flashing tail lamp. The 12-E's dual beam high setting is very useful
for busy, fast roads, and major intersections.

Barry

In article <3f272c80.303401308@netnews.comcast.net>, thunder9@nowhere.com (Thunder9) writes:

>I want to do some night riding - mostly on the road, and some trail riding. I'm new at this so I
>need some advice.
>
>For the road, it seems that the more light the better - to be seen - not necessarily for my own
>visibility.
>
>I see motorcyclists riding during the day time with their powerful lights on.
>
>So the reasoning goes, fork over the bucks and get a HID light. Maybe even two (one for the
>handlebars, one for the helmet).

You don't need an HID to "be seen" a simple 1.25 W halogen will serve without spending 30X as much.

>So I'm thinking about getting just that, night rider blow torch and storm. Cost a lot, sure. But
>how much is one's life and health worth?
>
>Also, is that kind of a dream set up for trails?

Now you are talking HID.

I do actually prefer something in the 10-15 W halogen class for road riding at night. The local
street lights were not put in for my convience. They also work on the trails, at least until someone
comes along from the other direction with one of those HID lamps blazing away :-)

Tom Gibb <TBGibb@aol.com

> Also, does anyone use sound blasting devices like horns?
>
> Thanks, Thunder9

Horns are useless. None are loud enough to get the attention of some dozy car driver with his
stereo and a/c on. For errant pedestrians and other bicyclists, yelling is colorful, reliable and
virually instant.

--
Ted Bennett Portland OR

Walmart has some kiddies horns that have a bulb and megaphone type set up. Quite loud.

take care Liz

Hey! Look what thunder9@nowhere.com (Thunder9) wrote :

>Thanks. I'm researching night riding safety, and just stumbled upon a great quote:
>
>"Ride like you're invisible"
>
>BTW, where do you get the reflective clothing and tape? Is Illuminite any good?
>
>Also, does anyone use sound blasting devices like horns?
>
>Thanks, Thunder9

Not really. I could have used a horn last evening when there were a bunch of deer on the path.

take care Liz

Hey! Look what Ted Bennett <tedbennett@earthlink.net> wrote :

>Horns are useless. None are loud enough to get the attention of some dozy car driver with his
>stereo and a/c on. For errant pedestrians and other bicyclists, yelling is colorful, reliable and
>virually instant.

> Not really. I could have used a horn last evening when there were a bunch of deer on the path.
>
> take care Liz
>
>
>
> Hey! Look what Ted Bennett <tedbennett@earthlink.net> wrote :
>
> >Horns are useless. None are loud enough to get the attention of some dozy car driver with his
> >stereo and a/c on. For errant pedestrians and other bicyclists, yelling is colorful, reliable and
> >virually instant.
>

Like I said: yelling would work better. Try a blood-curdling scream on those deer.

--
Ted Bennett Portland OR

thunder9@nowhere.com (Thunder9) wrote in message news:<3f27a6e6.334740398@netnews.comcast.net>...
> Thanks. I'm researching night riding safety, and just stumbled upon a great quote:
>
> "Ride like you're invisible"
>
> BTW, where do you get the reflective clothing and tape? Is Illuminite any good?
>

I've got an Illuminite windbreaker- but I got laid off before I could form any useful
opinions about it.

For reflective tape, find a sign shop that sells 3m or Avery self-adhesive reflective material:
http://www.beacongraphics.com/reflective-vinyl.html Plaster as much as you can on every rigid
surface of your bike. It'll light up when a car's headlights hit it. It's about $10 per square foot.

I've built tailboxes for my recumbents (
http://home.pacifier.com/~jwills/tai...s/photo_8.html ) that use 3 square feet of reflective
material, but a something similar could be built for an upright.

I had a back pack made from Illuminite and it didn't seem to help much. I made a big X from
reflective tape I got on sale after Halloween and my co-workers really spotted it.

My thoughts... most danger is from cars coming up behind you. I use the NiteRider, very bright, and
another Vista blinky up high on my backpack. As far as front lights???Ride a little slower at night
at you can get by with a 6 to 10 W light. I now use a NiteRider and only use the 32W on downhills
and flats. Better to be overlighted than under if you can afford though. If I see a car backing out
our turning in front of me, I "wiggle" the handle bars slightly to bring attention to the light. The
movement seems to catch the driver's eye and they notice me. Jim "Thunder9" <thunder9@nowhere.com>
wrote in message news:3f272c80.303401308@netnews.comcast.net...
> I want to do some night riding - mostly on the road, and some trail riding. I'm new at this so I
> need some advice.
>
> For the road, it seems that the more light the better - to be seen - not necessarily for my own
> visibility.
>
> I see motorcyclists riding during the day time with their powerful lights on.
>
> So the reasoning goes, fork over the bucks and get a HID light. Maybe even two (one for the
> handlebars, one for the helmet).
>
> So I'm thinking about getting just that, night rider blow torch and storm. Cost a lot, sure. But
> how much is one's life and health worth?
>
> Also, is that kind of a dream set up for trails?
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Thanks, Thunder9

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 01:14:41 GMT, thunder9@nowhere.com (Thunder9) wrote:

>I want to do some night riding - mostly on the road, and some trail riding. I'm new at this so I
>need some advice.
>
>For the road, it seems that the more light the better - to be seen - not necessarily for my own
>visibility.

You need only a 1.25W Cateye to be well visible. I have two and I make sure that one is always fully
or near fully charged. I use some Radio Shack brand rechargeable batteries (NiCd) for them (the
batteries have lasted for years and I get plenty of runtime before they need recharging). They
aren't good enough for riding trails (unless they are totally smooth - but I wouldn't call that a
trail) which would be pitch black with no light.

If I did a lot of night road riding (or if I didn't live in the city and there wasn't always lots of
ambient light which shows the road surface ahead of me adequately) I would get a hub dynamo
(generator).

High power lights tend to have a very spread out pattern so a lot of the light is wasted. They will
do a better job of illuminating road hazards than the Cateye, however (assuming both are handlebar
mounted) simply because they do produce more light. Mounting whichever light as low as possible will
help the most with road hazards, because it will create longer shadows.

>I see motorcyclists riding during the day time with their powerful lights on.
>
>So the reasoning goes, fork over the bucks and get a HID light. Maybe even two (one for the
>handlebars, one for the helmet).

Sounds ideal for off-road. Not necessary for road riding. A helmet light *alone* will barely show
the shadows of holes and whatnot ahead of you because it lines up with your line of vision.

>So I'm thinking about getting just that, night rider blow torch and storm. Cost a lot, sure. But
>how much is one's life and health worth?

When you use a white front light - even a 1.25W Cateye - motorists are far less inclined to turn in
front of you, since you are not almost totally invisible as you would be with no lights. This is the
most likely scenario; being hit from behind is far less likely. Of course you should use a rear
light anyway, they are cheap and the batteries last for ages.

>Also, is that kind of a dream set up for trails?

Handlebar and helmet mounted HID? I'd say so. They don't always come with the best chargers so if
you get one of these, make sure that you don't overcharge your expensive new battery.
--

Chris Bird

On 30 Jul 2003 22:02:56 GMT, tbgibb@aol.com (TBGibb) wrote:

>In article <3f272c80.303401308@netnews.comcast.net>, thunder9@nowhere.com (Thunder9) writes:
>
>>I want to do some night riding - mostly on the road, and some trail riding. I'm new at this so I
>>need some advice.
>>
>>For the road, it seems that the more light the better - to be seen - not necessarily for my own
>>visibility.
>>
>>I see motorcyclists riding during the day time with their powerful lights on.
>>
>>So the reasoning goes, fork over the bucks and get a HID light. Maybe even two (one for the
>>handlebars, one for the helmet).
>
>You don't need an HID to "be seen" a simple 1.25 W halogen will serve without spending 30X as much.

I've read this before, and I don't buy this argument. The fact of the matter is, most people even if
they rode with no lights at all... would never get into a serious or life threatening wreck.
Similarly, most airbags are never deployed. Yet they save lives, and increase your odds of surviving
"the big one" and with vastly reduced injury.

Motorcyclists often talk about the time they are hit... the driver was looking right at them, but
the driver didn't "see" them because the visual-footprint of the motorcyclist doesn't register in
the mind of the average driver.

The fundamental issue is one of statistics, and can be thought of like this:

1. What is the probability of getting hit at night with 1 W halogen, with 2 W halogen, with 10 W
halogen, with 20 W halogen, and with 40 W halogen. Of course, there is no data for this, but
the probability could be estimated if police around the world were to start compiling data on
crash rates. There would be many other factors such as country, city, traffic type, weather,
etc. but with enough data, one could theoretically keep many variables constant and look at
light vs. safety.

2. Then determine how does this compare to other dangers in your life and how much do you spend
to protect yourself from those. This puts the saftey increase in perspective. If it increases
your safety factor by the same amount as using your seatbelt in a car, then for me the cost
would be worth it. If it increases the safety factor by a very small amount, then maybe it
isn't worth it.

But alas we don't have all this good data. We only have peoples opinions and anecdotal stories. So
we must mentally determine the probabilities and risk vs. benefit vs. cost.

I am duely impressed by the passion behind the anecdotal stories. The bottom line seems to be that
"cars respect you more" when you use HID on the street. People have noticed clear behavioral changes
of drivers when they ride with HID. This leads me to believe that HID does make a significant safety
impact at night. I can't quantify it, but I'm now convinced /* there's a good chance that */ it is
worth the money.

If I didn't buy HID, I would in all probability be able to regularly ride at night without ever
having an accident. But I think the increased safety benefit is significant. And I feel its part of
my responsibility as a parent to make this purchase. Besides, its also kewl as sh..

Regards, Thunder9

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 00:06:16 GMT, thunder9@nowhere.com (Thunder9) wrote:

>If I didn't buy HID, I would in all probability be able to regularly ride at night without ever
>having an accident.

For me it's not getting hit, it's _hitting_ the pothole, glass, board, roadkill, etc... when road
riding at night. <G>

FWIW, I notice a large change in driver behavior, for the better, when using _any_ good light on the
road, compared to daytime riding. I take this as motorists not expecting a bicycle to be out at
night in general.

That said, after getting an HID for off-road riding, I'll never go back to the non-HID I used before
when trail riding.

Barry