Back wheel alignment problems

Never had a problem with this bike before, a Miyata 12 speed I bought used in like-new condition
about 3 years ago. It's a basic road-commuter bike, nothing fancy, but it has a decent triple-butted
frame and I've taken to daily 12 milers up in the hills (about 1000 foot elevation).

I had a blowout on the back and changed the back tire about 3 weeks ago and got a flat a couple days
ago from a staple but I noticed that the left-most wall of that new tire was being abraided to the
point where the nylon belting could be seen in places. Looking, I conclude that this could only be
caused by the tire rubbing against the left chainstay. I looked and saw an adjustment mechanism on
the left side where the dropout seats at the chainstay and I adjusted this with a screwdriver so
that the wheel would "want" to seat so that it's properly aligned. Things seemed fine and I put on a
new tire, thinking that the abraided tire wasn't safe for the daily steep descents I do. However, I
soon noticed that the tire had moved over very near the left chainstay again. I readjusted the stop
with a screwdriver, and tightened it down hard. Yesterday, while climbing, I noticed a sound and
realized that the tire was rubbing against the stay again! I jumped off the bike and twice had to
retighten the dropout. I kept an eye on it the rest of the ride and it seemed to me that the tire
was getting dangerously close to the chainstay again but I made it home. That was with my weight on
the bike. This morning, it looked like the tire is aligned correctly, and this is when I'm not on
the bike. Can anyone shed some light on this vexing problem? Thanks!

Dan

Dan Musicant at musicant@SpamNot.pacbell.net wrote on 8/4/03 7:41 AM:

> Never had a problem with this bike before, a Miyata 12 speed I bought used in like-new condition
> about 3 years ago. It's a basic road-commuter bike, nothing fancy, but it has a decent
> triple-butted frame and I've taken to daily 12 milers up in the hills (about 1000 foot elevation).
>
> I had a blowout on the back and changed the back tire about 3 weeks ago and got a flat a couple
> days ago from a staple but I noticed that the left-most wall of that new tire was being abraided
> to the point where the nylon belting could be seen in places. Looking, I conclude that this could
> only be caused by the tire rubbing against the left chainstay. I looked and saw an adjustment
> mechanism on the left side where the dropout seats at the chainstay and I adjusted this with a
> screwdriver so that the wheel would "want" to seat so that it's properly aligned. Things seemed
> fine and I put on a new tire, thinking that the abraided tire wasn't safe for the daily steep
> descents I do. However, I soon noticed that the tire had moved over very near the left chainstay
> again. I readjusted the stop with a screwdriver, and tightened it down hard. Yesterday, while
> climbing, I noticed a sound and realized that the tire was rubbing against the stay again! I
> jumped off the bike and twice had to retighten the dropout.

I assume you mean tighten the quick-release; the dropout is where the axle seats on the frame. Just
to say the obvious - quick releases are camming mechanisms, not screw mechanisms.

> I kept an eye on it the rest of the ride and it seemed to me that the tire was getting dangerously
> close to the chainstay again but I made it home. That was with my weight on the bike. This
> morning, it looked like the tire is aligned correctly, and this is when I'm not on the bike. Can
> anyone shed some light on this vexing problem? Thanks!

Also assuming you have dropouts which are horizontal (or nearly so), and you were turning the
adjustment screw on the dropout, so you could pull the axle back against a solid reference point

You might check the hub cones for proper tightness, and also the axle for possible bending or
breaking. If you are properly closing the rear quick-release, it shouldn't be moving in the
dropouts. Of course, if there was excessive layers of slippery paint on the dropouts, it might slide
forward under pedaling pressure, if it can't get a decent "bite".

Hope that helps,

-- Jim

could be a broken axel, and the skewer is holding it together. some times the quick release is not
tight enough. the adjustment of the bearing cones is loose. things like that. greg

Dan Musicant wrote:

> Looking, I conclude that this could only be caused by the tire rubbing against the left chainstay.
> I looked and saw an adjustment mechanism on the left side where the dropout seats at the chainstay
> and I adjusted this with a screwdriver so that the wheel would "want" to seat so that it's
> properly aligned.

Sounds like you're not getting the quick release adjusted tight enough.

See: http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8a.2.html

Art Harris

"Art Harris" <n2ah@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ce47897e.0308050333.5bcf731e@posting.google.com...
> Dan Musicant wrote:
>
> > Looking, I conclude that this could only be caused by the tire rubbing against the left
> > chainstay. I looked and saw an adjustment mechanism on the left side where the dropout seats at
> > the chainstay and I adjusted this with a screwdriver so that the wheel would "want" to seat so
> > that it's properly aligned.
>
> Sounds like you're not getting the quick release adjusted tight enough.
>
> See: http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8a.2.html

Don't know if it's been mentioned, but if the axle isn't perfectly centered, too much might be
sticking out from the locknuts, making the QR not able to clamp the dropout.

On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 15:35:53 GMT, Jim Edgar <jmedgar3@earthlink.net> wrote:

an Musicant at musicant@SpamNot.pacbell.net wrote on 8/4/03 7:41 AM:
:
:> Never had a problem with this bike before, a Miyata 12 speed I bought used in like-new condition
:> about 3 years ago. It's a basic road-commuter bike, nothing fancy, but it has a decent
:> triple-butted frame and I've taken to daily 12 milers up in the hills (about 1000 foot
:> elevation).
:>
:> I had a blowout on the back and changed the back tire about 3 weeks ago and got a flat a couple
:> days ago from a staple but I noticed that the left-most wall of that new tire was being abraided
:> to the point where the nylon belting could be seen in places. Looking, I conclude that this could
:> only be caused by the tire rubbing against the left chainstay. I looked and saw an adjustment
:> mechanism on the left side where the dropout seats at the chainstay and I adjusted this with a
:> screwdriver so that the wheel would "want" to seat so that it's properly aligned. Things seemed
:> fine and I put on a new tire, thinking that the abraided tire wasn't safe for the daily steep
:> descents I do. However, I soon noticed that the tire had moved over very near the left chainstay
:> again. I readjusted the stop with a screwdriver, and tightened it down hard. Yesterday, while
:> climbing, I noticed a sound and realized that the tire was rubbing against the stay again! I
:> jumped off the bike and twice had to retighten the dropout.
:
:I assume you mean tighten the quick-release; the dropout is where the axle :seats on the frame.
Just to say the obvious - quick releases are camming :mechanisms, not screw mechanisms.\

Yes, I meant tighten the quick-release. The term "quick-release" was eluding me.
:
:> I kept an eye on it the rest of the ride and it seemed to me that the tire was getting
:> dangerously close to the chainstay again but I made it home. That was with my weight on the bike.
:> This morning, it looked like the tire is aligned correctly, and this is when I'm not on the bike.
:> Can anyone shed some light on this vexing problem? Thanks!
:
:
:Also assuming you have dropouts which are horizontal (or nearly so), and you :were turning the
adjustment screw on the dropout, so you could pull the axle :back against a solid reference point

I was turning a screw (machine screw) that had purchase on the other side by a nut-like piece and
this assembly seemed to function as a stop for the axel (and there's a like one on the other side,
I believe) so that the wheel will have solid support on both sides when it's centered. Why it
suddenly needed adjustment, I don't know, but a clue may be the fact that there's evidently
something wrong with the wheel. It doesn't spin freely. A tooth is broken on the freewheel and I
just bought another freewheel (7 sprocket, whereas my current one is 6, but the guy at the store
said it would work and make my 12 speed a 14 speed, although the high and low sprockets are still
14 and 28 tooth), and I will disassemble the wheel hub and inspect the bearings and repack,
readjust or replace, etc. as required.
:
:You might check the hub cones for proper tightness, and also the axle for ossible bending or
breaking. If you are properly closing the rear :quick-release, it shouldn't be moving in the
dropouts. Of course, if there :was excessive layers of slippery paint on the dropouts, it might
slide :forward under pedaling pressure, if it can't get a decent "bite".
:
:Hope that helps,
:
:-- Jim

Thanks. Yes, the cones I will inspect and readjust or replace as required. I've never touched any of
the bearings on this bike, which was lightly used until about 3 months ago and now I'm using it
quite a lot.

Dan

On 05 Aug 2003 05:49:33 GMT, neptunium@aol.com (NEPTUNIUM) wrote:

:could be a broken axel, and the skewer is holding it together. some times the :quick release is not
tight enough. the adjustment of the bearing cones is :loose. things like that. :greg

Yeah, there's something screwy about the wheel. I'm going to look at the axel, cones/bearings
shortly. Thanks.

Dan

On 5 Aug 2003 04:33:44 -0700, n2ah@yahoo.com (Art Harris) wrote:

an Musicant wrote:
:
:> Looking, I conclude that this could only be caused by the tire rubbing against the left
:> chainstay. I looked and saw an adjustment mechanism on the left side where the dropout seats at
:> the chainstay and I adjusted this with a screwdriver so that the wheel would "want" to seat so
:> that it's properly aligned.
:
:Sounds like you're not getting the quick release adjusted tight enough.
:
:See: :http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8a.2.html
:
:Art Harris

On 5 Aug 2003 04:33:44 -0700, n2ah@yahoo.com (Art Harris) wrote:

an Musicant wrote:
:
:> Looking, I conclude that this could only be caused by the tire rubbing against the left
:> chainstay. I looked and saw an adjustment mechanism on the left side where the dropout seats at
:> the chainstay and I adjusted this with a screwdriver so that the wheel would "want" to seat so
:> that it's properly aligned.
:
:Sounds like you're not getting the quick release adjusted tight enough.
:
:See: :http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8a.2.html
:
:Art Harris

No, I got it real tight but it doesn't seem to be stopping it from migrating. New one to me, but the
wheel isn't turning freely so something's up. Will disassemble and inspect.

"Dan Musicant" <musicant@SpamNot.pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:srpsivkfusdim45uo21nqk3ln7oropmhou@4ax.com...
> Never had a problem with this bike before, a Miyata 12 speed I bought used in like-new condition
> about 3 years ago. It's a basic road-commuter bike, nothing fancy, but it has a decent
> triple-butted frame and I've taken to daily 12 milers up in the hills (about 1000 foot elevation).
>
> I had a blowout on the back and changed the back tire about 3 weeks ago and got a flat a couple
> days ago from a staple but I noticed that the left-most wall of that new tire was being abraided
> to the point where the nylon belting could be seen in places. Looking, I conclude that this could
> only be caused by the tire rubbing against the left chainstay. I looked and saw an adjustment
> mechanism on the left side where the dropout seats at the chainstay and I adjusted this with a
> screwdriver so that the wheel would "want" to seat so that it's properly aligned. Things seemed
> fine and I put on a new tire, thinking that the abraided tire wasn't safe for the daily steep
> descents I do. However, I soon noticed that the tire had moved over very near the left chainstay
> again. I readjusted the stop with a screwdriver, and tightened it down hard. Yesterday, while
> climbing, I noticed a sound and realized that the tire was rubbing against the stay again! I
> jumped off the bike and twice had to retighten the dropout. I kept an eye on it the rest of the
> ride and it seemed to me that the tire was getting dangerously close to the chainstay again but I
> made it home. That was with my weight on the bike. This morning, it looked like the tire is
> aligned correctly, and this is when I'm not on the bike. Can anyone shed some light on this vexing
> problem? Thanks!
>
> Dan

Remove the wheel and check for a broken axle. While it's out, remove the skewer and
lubricate the cam.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

In article <vj0t167nnboj7b@corp.supernews.com>, "A Muzi" <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>Remove the wheel and check for a broken axle. While it's out, remove the skewer and
>lubricate the cam.

Some years ago I had a wheel that wouldn't stay straight in the frame (with horizontal dropouts)
until I put a drop of oil on the cam mechanism. Without the oil, increasing friction as the cam
tightened kept it from completely closing. The solution to the problem was found by searching the
archives of this newsgroup--a great resource, since on my own I would never have thought of the cam
as the cause of the problem. Two people also sent me drawings of special washers they had designed
to clip the axle to the back of the dropout--both a "mechanical drawing" with views from 3 sides, as
well as a 3-D rendering!

--
Ned Mantei Department of Cell Biology, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology CH-8093 Zurich,
Switzerland

On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 22:44:01 GMT, Dan Musicant <musicant@SpamNot.pacbell.net> may have said:

> A tooth is broken on the freewheel and I just bought another freewheel (7 sprocket, whereas my
> current one is 6, but the guy at the store said it would work and make my 12 speed a 14 speed,
> although the high and low sprockets are still 14 and 28 tooth),

Unless your shifter has 7 positions or you're using a friction shifter, you're unlikely to be able
to use all 7 without some additional work.

>Thanks. Yes, the cones I will inspect and readjust or replace as required. I've never touched any
>of the bearings on this bike, which was lightly used until about 3 months ago and now I'm using it
>quite a lot.

Bearing failure is unlikely to allow the axle to move. If you had to suddenly take up slack that
hadn't been there before on the QR, that's a big sign of a broken axle. This is a much more common
problem with the old freewheel-style rears than with the newer casette-style hubs.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail. Yes, I have a killfile. If I
don't respond to something, it's also possible that I'm busy.

I went though this a few months ago. It ended up being a snapped axle and the QR was holding
it together.

Fire up MTB 03

On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 13:55:26 GMT, Werehatrack <rault00@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote:

:On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 22:44:01 GMT, Dan Musicant
:<musicant@SpamNot.pacbell.net> may have said:
:
:> A tooth is broken on the freewheel and I just bought another freewheel (7 sprocket, whereas my
:> current one is 6, but the guy at the store said it would work and make my 12 speed a 14 speed,
:> although the high and low sprockets are still 14 and 28 tooth),
:
:Unless your shifter has 7 positions or you're using a friction :shifter, you're unlikely to be able
to use all 7 without some :additional work.

I realized that last night. The shifters are on the downtube and both are indexed and I'm too
attached to the indexing to use the non-indexed option. Therefore I'll have to return that 7
sprocket freewheel and buy the 6 sprocket one I found at another store. I'm wondering if I should
buy two because a guy I talked to last night told me that they are getting pretty rare.

:
:>Thanks. Yes, the cones I will inspect and readjust or replace as required. I've never touched any
:>of the bearings on this bike, which was lightly used until about 3 months ago and now I'm using it
:>quite a lot.
:
:Bearing failure is unlikely to allow the axle to move. If you had to :suddenly take up slack that
hadn't been there before on the QR, that's :a big sign of a broken axle. This is a much more common
problem with :the old freewheel-style rears than with the newer casette-style hubs.

I'm going to disassemble that wheel in a day or two, maybe today and will hopefully find out
what's wrong.

On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 13:55:26 GMT, Werehatrack <rault00@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote:

:On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 22:44:01 GMT, Dan Musicant
:<musicant@SpamNot.pacbell.net> may have said:
:
:> A tooth is broken on the freewheel and I just bought another freewheel (7 sprocket, whereas my
:> current one is 6, but the guy at the store said it would work and make my 12 speed a 14 speed,
:> although the high and low sprockets are still 14 and 28 tooth),
:
:Unless your shifter has 7 positions or you're using a friction :shifter, you're unlikely to be able
to use all 7 without some :additional work.
:

Actually, I have a used bike wheel someone left at my house with a 6 sprocket freewheel on it. I
looked at it yesterday and counted the teeth and saw it had highest and lowest sprokets with 14 and
30 teeth and decided it wasn't a match (my current is 14 and 28 teeth), but thinking now I wonder if
I can use it. Why not? It will just give me a lower lowest gear than my present one, right? It's
dirty but it doesn't look worn. I will be putting a new chain on in any case.