Trim clicks?

I was testing riding some bikes built up with Dura-Ace and Chorus yesterday. The Dura-Ace was
9-speed, I think the Chorus was 10-speed. One thing I did notice on both was some chain rub against
the front cage. Is this an inevitable fallout of the move to ever larger number of rear cogs? I
think I've heard of "trim clicks" for the front derailler; are these designed to handle this
problem? And how do you use them?

A couple of more things I noticed. The Dura-Ace has a chunkier feel than I expected. I expected it
to be like my RSX/RX100, except much slicker and smoother-feeling. Definitely solid, though. The
Chorus levers by contrast felt and looked flimsy. But the big difference came when coasting. What a
racket! Reminds me of when kids used to attach a playing card to the bike so the spokes would hit
the card and make an imitation motor noise - exactly that sound. I guess I'm not cut out to be a
Campy person.

Dave

In article <3F4BE28A.B67162C4@bbn.com>, Dave Stallard <stallard@bbn.com> wrote:

> I was testing riding some bikes built up with Dura-Ace and Chorus yesterday. The Dura-Ace was
> 9-speed, I think the Chorus was 10-speed. One thing I did notice on both was some chain rub
> against the front cage. Is this an inevitable fallout of the move to ever larger number of rear
> cogs? I think I've heard of "trim clicks" for the front derailler; are these designed to handle
> this problem? And how do you use them?

campy's got "trim clicks". dunno about dura-ace...i know they din't useta, but IIRC they were
designed not to need them if properly adjusted.

> A couple of more things I noticed. The Dura-Ace has a chunkier feel than I expected. I expected it
> to be like my RSX/RX100, except much slicker and smoother-feeling. Definitely solid, though. The
> Chorus levers by contrast felt and looked flimsy. But the big difference came when coasting. What
> a racket! Reminds me of when kids used to attach a playing card to the bike so the spokes would
> hit the card and make an imitation motor noise - exactly that sound. I guess I'm not cut out to be
> a Campy person.

i've got two bikes: chorus & record. both work fine, both have been through some nasty crashes and
came up fine (if a little scarred). if you're unfond of the sound of the campy freehub pawls, the
9-sp versions are interoperable: my chorus setup has 105 hubs/cassettes. from what i've heard, the
10-speed should be as well.

hg

dave-<< I think the Chorus was 10-speed. One thing I did notice on both was some chain rub against
the front cage. Is this an inevitable fallout of the move to ever larger number of rear cogs?
>><BR><BR>

Campagnolo front der has much more adjustability than shimano DA, which has only one 'click' to move
the front der inwards a wee bit. If the front der was rubbing in smaller cogs and big ring, front
der not adjusted well.

<< The Chorus levers by contrast felt and looked flimsy. But the big difference came when coasting.
What a racket! >><BR><BR>

Three pawls in the rear hub instead of the inferior two. Three is what most after market hub makers
use, shimano is tied to two which is 30% too few if ya ask me.

The levers for Campagnolo are light but functional. W/o shift guts at the end of the lever, the
needn't be so robust(heavy).

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

h guy-<< if you're unfond of the sound of the campy freehub pawls, the 9-sp versions are
interoperable: >><BR><BR>

Campagnolo has used three pawls instead of two, for over a decade, for 8s, 9s and 10s.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

I'll hold reservations on this untill Campy comes out with their 27 speed freehub next year.

May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear for the hills! Chris

Chris'Z Corner "The Website for the Common Bicyclist": http://www.geocities.com/czcorner

<snip> But the big difference came
> when coasting. What a racket! Reminds me of when kids used to attach a playing card to the bike so
> the spokes would hit the card and make an imitation motor noise - exactly that sound.
<snip>

King's hubs are much worse and ostensibly even better than Campy's.

<snip>
>I guess I'm not cut out to be a Campy person.
<snip>

Good,Tullio doesn't need your money anyway.

App

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 22:54:15 GMT, "H. Guy" <HelpfulGuy@helpfulplace.org> wrote:

>In article <3F4BE28A.B67162C4@bbn.com>, Dave Stallard <stallard@bbn.com> wrote:
>
>> I was testing riding some bikes built up with Dura-Ace and Chorus yesterday. The Dura-Ace was
>> 9-speed, I think the Chorus was 10-speed. One thing I did notice on both was some chain rub
>> against the front cage. Is this an inevitable fallout of the move to ever larger number of rear
>> cogs? I think I've heard of "trim clicks" for the front derailler; are these designed to handle
>> this problem? And how do you use them?
>
>campy's got "trim clicks". dunno about dura-ace...i know they din't useta, but IIRC they were
>designed not to need them if properly adjusted.

I wouldn't know when "they din't useta", but my ST-7400 (purchased in
1992) has multiple position trim capability on the left-hand lever. Trim is available at both ends
of the lever movement. Many seem unaware that when on the big ring a light touch on the inner
lever will trim the derailleur slightly to the left.

BTW, my ST-7700-C also has similar trim capability.

jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3

pete-<< Good,Tullio doesn't need your money anyway. >><BR><BR>

Valentino, Tullio died in 1984...

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

> Three pawls in the rear hub instead of the inferior two. Three is what most after market hub
> makers use, shimano is tied to two which is 30% too few if ya ask me.

What do the pawls do, pardon my ignorance? I probably could get used to the noise, it was just
rather striking.

> The levers for Campagnolo are light but functional. W/o shift guts at the end of the lever, the
> needn't be so robust(heavy).

The little finger pad on the inner levers, in particular, seemed wobbly, and rather inclined to fall
off. Perhaps Record is different in that record? I don't want to ignite a Shimano/Campy war, just
curious about all these things.

Dave

vecchio51@aol.com (Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote in message
news:<20030828095803.19859.00000062@mb-m28.aol.com>...
> pete-<< Good,Tullio doesn't need your money anyway. >><BR><BR>
>
> Valentino, Tullio died in 1984...
>
> Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
> (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Exactly my point.

App

In answer to your question about triming to avoid chain rub...

I have a pair of Dura-Ace triple levers with an Ultegra triple FD and Ultegra chainring in the front
and I have to trim the F.D. quite often. Fortunately these DA levers seem to have more trimming
clicks than the Ultegra and 105 levers. The chain probably rubs on the outer edge of the front
derailleur when you're in the upper (smaller, or outside) cogs on the rear cassette. So you gently
nudge the left shifter a tad to the right to move that outer edge, further out. This should
re-center the chain inside the FD cage and reduce the rub. Too much of a nudge, and the chain might
jump up to a larger chainring. So what if you then downshift in the rear to a larger cog? Then the
chain may rub on the inside of the FD cage. You can gently nudge the downshifter lever to re-center
the chain. I am unsure about Campy trimming.

r.b.

Dave Stallard <stallard@bbn.com> wrote in message news:<3F4BE28A.B67162C4@bbn.com>...
> I was testing riding some bikes built up with Dura-Ace and Chorus yesterday. The Dura-Ace was
> 9-speed, I think the Chorus was 10-speed. One thing I did notice on both was some chain rub
> against the front cage. Is this an inevitable fallout of the move to ever larger number of rear
> cogs? I think I've heard of "trim clicks" for the front derailler; are these designed to handle
> this problem? And how do you use them?

rb wrote:
>
> In answer to your question about triming to avoid chain rub...
>
> I have a pair of Dura-Ace triple levers with an Ultegra triple FD and Ultegra chainring in the
> front and I have to trim the F.D. quite often. Fortunately these DA levers seem to have more
> trimming clicks than the Ultegra and 105 levers. The chain probably rubs on the outer edge of the
> front derailleur when you're in the upper (smaller, or outside) cogs on the rear cassette. So you
> gently nudge the left shifter a tad to the right to move that outer edge, further out. This should
> re-center the chain inside the FD cage and reduce the rub. Too much of a nudge, and the chain
> might jump up to a larger chainring. So what if you then downshift in the rear to a larger cog?
> Then the chain may rub on the inside of the FD cage. You can gently nudge the downshifter lever to
> re-center the chain. I am unsure about Campy trimming.

R.B,

Thanks for your reply; this was what I was looking for. The Dura-Ace triple is what in fact I'm
interested in for my next bike. It sounds like it might be a little annoying, but I suppose it was
what we had to do in the olden days before indexing. In fact, I think I even used to call it
"trimming" mentally.

Does anybody have a comparison between Dura-Ace triple and Campy triple?

Dave

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 22:43:26 GMT, Dave Stallard <stallard@bbn.com> wrote:

>I was testing riding some bikes built up with Dura-Ace and Chorus yesterday. The Dura-Ace was
>9-speed, I think the Chorus was 10-speed. One thing I did notice on both was some chain rub against
>the front cage. Is this an inevitable fallout of the move to ever larger number of rear cogs? I
>think I've heard of "trim clicks" for the front derailler; are these designed to handle this
>problem? And how do you use them?

After monitoring this thread for a few days now (and contributing one article) I got curious. I just
now went down to the garage and checked the trim capability of both Dura Ace ST-7400 and ST-7700-C
shifters. I removed the chain from both bikes and counted the detents (trim positions).

The ST-7400 (Dura Ace 8-Speed STI) has six detents (seven positions). Starting from the left-most
position and gently pushing the big lever, the sixth click is as far as it will go. A gentle push on
the small (inner) lever will then cause the derailleur to shift to the left a small amount. Another
push will cause it to return to the left-most position.

I tried the same experiment on the ST-7700-C (Dura Ace 9-Speed STI) with somewhat confusing results.
Most of the time I could only count five detents (six positions), but a time or two I got the
derailleur to stop in a position for which I could perceive no click. I would have expected the
newer shifter to have at least as many trim positions as the older model.

While I had the 9-speed bike on the stand I also checked out the big-ring trim. Turns out the first
click on the inner lever while in the right-most position moves the derailleur two detents. In other
words, you can get to an intermediate trim position by clicking the inner lever once and then gently
pushing the big lever one click. I didn't go back and check the older bike for the same capability.

Now that I'm back at the computer it occurs to me that perhaps I had difficulty finding detents on
the newer bike because I've been riding lately with a Gatorade solution in my water bottles. Could
be the BB cable guide is slightly gummy. Also I may have adjusted the cable tension and derailleur
stop so that there's not enough free play to allow the shifter to go down to its last position when
downshifting. I'll have to check this out, but not right now. :-)

jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3

> stallard-<< Does anybody have a comparison between Dura-Ace triple and Campy triple? >><BR><BR>

Quoth Peter Chisholm:

> Campagnolo left shifter is much more versatile, more usable, more trim-able than any shimano one.

Yep.

> In addition, the Campagnolo left is triple and double, unlike the DA which is triple only(dum).

I don't buy that. I don't believe that it's possible to make a triple front shifter that won't work
on a double. Before I converted to Veloce, my Hetchins had 105 STI with the TA double crankset, and
it worked just fine even though the shifter was a "triple."

> Campagnolo left is compatible with any front der/crank combo from any manufacturter as well, not
> so for shimano..

That's true, at least as far as triple cranks are concerned. (Doubles, even wide range doubles like
my 50-28, are much less fussy about this.)

Sheldon "I Did It My Way" Brown +-----------------------------------------------------------+
| Always listen to the experts. | They'll tell you what can't be done, and why. | Then do it.
| --Robert A. Heinlein |
+-----------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts
shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com