I have been riding a Trek 5200 Stock from the factory for about 1 1/2 years 5000 miles. I average
about 19 MPH riding alone on a good mix of flats and hills. Rides range between 20 and 50 miles. My
average speed on group rides is 20.5 MPH. Do you think I will gain anything with the purchase of
either the 5900 or the Madone 5.9. I have heard many different opinions from the members of the bike
club. I don't mind spending the money for either of the bike's but would hate to do so and find no
improvement. I tried the 5900 but it's hard to tell from one short test ride.

D.P.G. wrote:

> I have been riding a Trek 5200 Stock from the factory for about 1 1/2 years 5000 miles. I average
> about 19 MPH riding alone on a good mix of flats and hills. Rides range between 20 and 50 miles.
> My average speed on group rides is 20.5 MPH. Do you think I will gain anything with the purchase
> of either the 5900 or the Madone 5.9. I have heard many different opinions from the members of the
> bike club. I don't mind spending the money for either of the bike's but would hate to do so and
> find no improvement. I tried the 5900 but it's hard to tell from one short test ride.
>
>

The lighter bikes will make you very slightly quicker up long hills, very slightly slower down long
hills, and the difference on flat ground will be too small to make any real difference. You already
have an excellent bike, and the new one won't make you beat people who used to beat you. You can
gain much more from training than from new expensive hardware.

Dave Lehnen

In article <4KAtb.67300$Ec1.3802618@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Dave Lehnen
<dclehnen@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

> D.P.G. wrote:
>
> > I have been riding a Trek 5200 Stock from the factory for about 1 1/2 years 5000 miles. I
> > average about 19 MPH riding alone on a good mix of flats and hills. Rides range between 20 and
> > 50 miles. My average speed on group rides is 20.5 MPH. Do you think I will gain anything with
> > the purchase of either the 5900 or the Madone 5.9. I have heard many different opinions from the
> > members of the bike club. I don't mind spending the money for either of the bike's but would
> > hate to do so and find no improvement. I tried the 5900 but it's hard to tell from one short
> > test ride.

> The lighter bikes will make you very slightly quicker up long hills, very slightly slower down
> long hills, and the difference on flat ground will be too small to make any real difference. You
> already have an excellent bike, and the new one won't make you beat people who used to beat you.
> You can gain much more from training than from new expensive hardware.

Dave's recommendations are all very true, and indeed if you have the money to spend, you could spend
it on personal coaching for much greater gains.

However, I'd like to encourage you to buy a new Trek anyways, especially if you take about a 52cm
frame. It's the rapid turnover by well-heeled leading-edge riders like you that makes the vast
selection of used bicycles at good prices available to cheap scrounger riders like me. The 5900 is
slightly lighter than the Madone, but the Madone is slightly more aero and is still lighter than
your old and busted 5200. If you're a hillclimb specialist, the 5900 is the best choice (Be Like
Lance and mount a left-side DT shifter. It's very cool), otherwise go for the Madone.

Either way, I--er, _you_, can't go wrong.

--
Ryan Cousineau, rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

-----------------

Yes, to back up Ryan, I would say if you are a 52cm you definitely should go to any other bike, it's time...Come on, who in his right mind wants to be seen on a 5200 (Ryan, am I right?), you need the 5.9.
Don't get the wrong idea here, but how much do you want for the 5200 and how soon would you be able to bring it over?

C'Rider
President - NY Chapter - "CRAWCE"
(Cannondale Riders Afflicted With Carbon Envy)

__________________
I don't fear death,
I only fear dying without having lived.

> I have been riding a Trek 5200 Stock from the factory for about 1 1/2
years
> 5000 miles. I average about 19 MPH riding alone on a good mix of flats and hills. Rides range
> between 20 and 50 miles. My average speed on group
rides
> is 20.5 MPH. Do you think I will gain anything with the purchase of either the 5900 or the Madone
> 5.9. I have heard many different opinions from the members of the bike club. I don't mind spending
> the money for either of
the
> bike's but would hate to do so and find no improvement. I tried the 5900
but
> it's hard to tell from one short test ride.

It's going to be tough to tell the differences on a short ride, as all three bikes have virtually
identical geometries... my guess is that the biggest initial difference you'll notice will come from
the lighter wheels on either the Madone or 5900.

The Madone or 5900 both have nicer equipment than what you're presently riding, and that might have
an effect on how much you enjoy the bike, more so than the slight weight difference between them.
The Madone is a whopping 2 ounces heavier than the identically-equipped 5900 we have in our Redwood
City location; compared to your 5200, there will be about a 1.5 pound weight difference. Enough to
feel climbing a hill? Probably not when seated, but when you're standing and the bike's moving
side-to-side underneath you, it becomes (at least to me) noticeable.

I'd go for the new bike because it seems like something new & exciting, and maybe that will make you
want to ride more. But don't look for either one to improve your speed to a significant degree on a
group ride, aside from the excitement of something new (and know that it's about as good as you can
possibly get) making you ride harder.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"D.P.G." <nobody.here@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<Zsztb.206681$Tr4.610046@attbi_s03>...
> I have been riding a Trek 5200 Stock from the factory for about 1 1/2 years 5000 miles. I average
> about 19 MPH riding alone on a good mix of flats and hills. Rides range between 20 and 50 miles.
> My average speed on group rides is 20.5 MPH. Do you think I will gain anything with the purchase
> of either the 5900 or the Madone 5.9. I have heard many different opinions from the members of the
> bike club. I don't mind spending the money for either of the bike's but would hate to do so and
> find no improvement. I tried the 5900 but it's hard to tell from one short test ride.

Dear D.P.G.,

Notice that you improve from 19 to 20.5 mph merely by riding in groups. Either you're drafting, your
group picks easier rides, or you're enjoying the benefit of pacing, a polite phrase for not dozing
off quite so much because there's company and you'd like to be ahead of them.

If Lance Armstrong found a bike that increased his speed almost 8%, he certainly wouldn't let anyone
sell it to the rest of us.

Carl Fogel

nobody-<< I have been riding a Trek 5200 Stock from the factory for about 1 1/2 years 5000 miles. I
average about 19 MPH riding alone on a good mix of flats and hills. Rides range between 20 and 50
miles. My average speed on group rides is 20.5 MPH. Do you think I will gain anything with the
purchase of either the 5900 or the Madone 5.9. >><BR><BR>

No, and it would be a shame if a bike seller said you would, then didn't.

Bicycle equipment is hyped way out of proportion to what it actually doies in bicycle performance.
There are really only four things that make a difference-

-fit-does your bike fit ya? -fitness-are you? -fat, lack thereof on you -finesse-riding and
racing smart

all else, like the difference between the 5200, 5900, madone, is minor to non-existent.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

> compared to your 5200, there will be about a 1.5 pound weight difference. Enough to feel climbing
> a hill? Probably not when seated, but when you're standing and the bike's moving side-to-side
> underneath you, it becomes (at least to me) noticeable.

1.5 lbs = 0.8% of rider+bike weight, or so...

That's about 11 seconds on Old La Honda.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/

In article <20031116094653.28568.00000396@mb-m14.aol.com>, vecchio51@aol.com (Qui si parla
Campagnolo) wrote:

> nobody-<< I have been riding a Trek 5200 Stock from the factory for about 1
> 1/2 years 5000 miles. I average about 19 MPH riding alone on a good mix of flats and hills. Rides
> range between 20 and 50 miles. My average speed on group rides is 20.5 MPH. Do you think I will
> gain anything with the purchase of either the 5900 or the Madone 5.9. >><BR><BR>
>
> No, and it would be a shame if a bike seller said you would, then didn't.
>
> Bicycle equipment is hyped way out of proportion to what it actually doies in bicycle performance.
> There are really only four things that make a difference-
>
> -fit-does your bike fit ya? -fitness-are you? -fat, lack thereof on you -finesse-riding and
> racing smart
>
> all else, like the difference between the 5200, 5900, madone, is minor to non-existent.

Peter! You're ruining everything!

--
Ryan Cousineau, rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

> > compared to your 5200, there will be about a 1.5 pound weight difference. Enough to feel
> > climbing a hill? Probably not when seated,
but
> > when you're standing and the bike's moving side-to-side underneath you,
it
> > becomes (at least to me) noticeable.
>
> 1.5 lbs = 0.8% of rider+bike weight, or so...
>
> That's about 11 seconds on Old La Honda.

By noticeable, I didn't mean time-wise. I find I can detect pretty small differences in weight when
standing, where I'm essentially isolating my weight from the machine. The bike simply feels very
different (not as much mass moving from side-to-side). When seated, the weight is all part of the
package, everything moving together.

However, how a bike "feels" can have a major effect on your effort. We have a customer who
upgraded from an older LeMond Tourmalet to a Zurich, perhaps a four pound difference in weight,
probably a bit less than that. He came in complaining about the setup of the new bike, because he
was getting knee pains. We checked things over very carefully; the two bikes were *identical*
(same shoes & pedals from his old bike too). Easy to do, since they had the same geometry. The
difference? He was climbing Old LaHonda literally four minutes faster than before. His new bike
was simply more fun to ride in some manner, such that he felt like going all-out in a way that was
a bit much for his knees.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@sfu.ca> wrote:
> Dave's recommendations are all very true, and indeed if you have the money to spend, you could
> spend it on personal coaching for much greater gains.

> However, I'd like to encourage you to buy a new Trek anyways, especially if you take about a 52cm
> frame. It's the rapid turnover by well-heeled leading-edge riders like you that makes the vast
> selection of used bicycles at good prices available to cheap scrounger riders like me. The 5900 is
> slightly lighter than the Madone, but the Madone is slightly more aero and is still lighter than
> your old and busted 5200. If you're a hillclimb specialist, the 5900 is the best choice (Be Like
> Lance and mount a left-side DT shifter. It's very cool), otherwise go for the Madone.

> Either way, I--er, _you_, can't go wrong.

But shouldn't you be spending the money on coaching, Ryan?

In article <3fb98fae$1@darkstar>, Benjamin Weiner <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote:

> Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@sfu.ca> wrote:
> > Dave's recommendations are all very true, and indeed if you have the money to spend, you could
> > spend it on personal coaching for much greater gains.
>
> > However, I'd like to encourage you to buy a new Trek anyways, especially if you take about a
> > 52cm frame. It's the rapid turnover by well-heeled leading-edge riders like you that makes the
> > vast selection of used bicycles at good prices available to cheap scrounger riders like me. The
> > 5900 is slightly lighter than the Madone, but the Madone is slightly more aero and is still
> > lighter than your old and busted 5200. If you're a hillclimb specialist, the 5900 is the best
> > choice (Be Like Lance and mount a left-side DT shifter. It's very cool), otherwise go for the
> > Madone.
>
> > Either way, I--er, _you_, can't go wrong.
>
> But shouldn't you be spending the money on coaching, Ryan?

Stripped for racing, my current bike weighs something like 22 pounds. A Trek OCLV with good
components would probably hit 16-17. I'm probably within 8 pounds of my goal weight (150) for next
year already, and in an easy trajectory to lose that much before the races start next year.

Yeah, the coaching would probably still help more, but I may be the only guy in this ng who can
honestly claim that the weight difference between these two bikes would make a performance
difference for the racing I do.

But then, that's not really the point, is it?
--
Ryan Cousineau, rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <vecchio51@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031117094659.01467.00000318@mb-m20.aol.com...
> Reality, what a concept....
>

Reality is for people that can't handle drugs ...

"Andrew Price" <arathorn@bigpond.net.au.x1> wrote in message
news:TGmub.15831$aT.10698@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <vecchio51@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20031117094659.01467.00000318@mb-m20.aol.com...
> > Reality, what a concept....
> >
>
> Reality is for people that can't handle drugs ...

Reality is for those who lack imagination.

Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@sfu.ca> wrote:

> > But shouldn't you be spending the money on coaching, Ryan?

> Stripped for racing, my current bike weighs something like 22 pounds. A Trek OCLV with good
> components would probably hit 16-17. I'm probably within 8 pounds of my goal weight (150) for next
> year already, and in an easy trajectory to lose that much before the races start next year.

Yeah, right. Don't believe everything you read on TV. A google search of this group suggests that a
Trek 5200 weighs 18-19 lbs without pedals (or cages presumably). A 22 lb bike is already fairly
light. To get to 16-17 with pedals you probably need very light components and/or very light wheels
with tubulars, at least.

Last year I was loitering with one of the local D3 pros at a race. His new bike was sick light. He
also estimated it would cost over $5000 retail.

> Yeah, the coaching would probably still help more, but I may be the only guy in this ng who can
> honestly claim that the weight difference between these two bikes would make a performance
> difference for the racing I do.

What kind of racing is that? Bike toss? BTW, I have a 28 lb touring-bike cyclocross conversion, and
I actually have to carry the monster :-P I still get beat by ripped older guys on full-squish
mountain bikes, because as always, it is about the rider.

> But then, that's not really the point, is it?
> --
> Ryan Cousineau, rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

Well, it is if you want Fabrizio to respect you, and that is a major part of racing, after all.

I am the last person who should be giving out coaching advice on Usenet, but here goes. Based on
what you've said elsewhere, start doing longer rides as base or preparation training. If you have
comfort or fit issues that keep you from doing a five hour ride, spend money to resolve that
(saddle, professional fitting, etc). Do long rides with people that are faster than you and you'll
get faster, or die trying, IME.

Ben